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People are demanding that Cloudflare drop Kiwi Farms

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Re: People are demanding that Cloudflare drop Kiwi Farms

#81

Post by viridian »

notthisagain2 wrote: post #64
emptyparadise wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did somebody post a link to HN on that site or something?

Yes they did: https://kiwifarms.net/search/15388568/?q=https%3A%2F%2Fnews.... I guess that's part of the reason why there are very specific accounts in this thread promoting obvious misinformation without citing any sources.

To be honest, having read through this entire thread, you are the only user that sticks out as having some below-the-surface agenda and hiding behind a new account.

People in glass houses really shouldn't throw stones.

Re: People are demanding that Cloudflare drop Kiwi Farms

#82

Post by kelseyfrog »

psyc wrote: post #41
xupybd wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My only actual experience with them is their refusal to remove video of my country men getting violently murdered. While I don't think they should have been forced to do that it was the right thing to do. The families should have been given that respect. Anything outside of that I'll admit I'm probably wrong or at best uninformed. I have no doubt that in this day and age they're being attacked in bad faith by the med…

I can certainly understand how that would be upsetting. I'm sure you understand that KF isn't about respecting.... anybody. At all. They are as irreverent as anything I've ever seen. But yes, they're attacked almost exclusively in bad faith by everybody. Everybody. As soon as somebody says "There's a website dedicated to making trans people commit suicide!" in this our Age of Outrage, there is a part of most people t…

This is a really good example of sealioning. Saving this for later. Thank you.

Re: People are demanding that Cloudflare drop Kiwi Farms

#83

Post by deepdriver »

cholantesh wrote: post #80
deepdriver wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This "care" is unnecessary and harmful for most children. Puberty is the cure for most children with body dysphoria; up to 90% of kids who identify as transgender desist from this identity post-puberty. However, effects from "gender-affirming care" like a deepened voice, mastectomy, orchiectomy, hysterectomy, and sterilization are irreversible. The long-term effects of puberty blockers especially are unknown, particu…

>This issue is highly ideological and politicized on both sides. Suggesting medical transition for any minor is not currently supported by the evidence. Neither is conversion therapy, but SEGM happily associates itself with advocates for it , along with evangelical organizations. Indeed, such advocates are found among 'expert witnesses' in the Tavistock case. Maybe Vice should report on these associations. Maybe peop…

As usual, trans activists have co-opted language of the gay rights movement (conversion therapy) to describe an altogether different situation:

https://segm.org/danger_of_conflation

If you care about kids, don’t ignore the growing body of evidence that suggests youth transition is overwhelmingly harmful. Don’t ignore stories like Chloe’s:

https://twitter.com/ChoooCole/status/1560495012999151616

The harm will be obvious to all once the lawsuits get rolling:

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/britains-gender-youth-...

Re: People are demanding that Cloudflare drop Kiwi Farms

#84

Post by kelseyfrog »

HereIGoAgain wrote: post #25
xupybd wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they're organizing swatting then that should be covered under conspiracy to commit a crime https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/371 Swatting is incredibly dangerous. I fear many see it as a prank but when you get cops with guns charging into what they think is a dangerous situation then people get hurt. Then you have harassment laws https://www.findlaw.com/criminal/criminal-charges/harassment... . There are…

The problem is that, much like the alleged body count, they do nothing of the sort. See my post above. They don't harass or even troll. It's literally one of the core rules of the site. Look (and laugh) but don't touch! If you ever try to organize something on-site, you'll get down-voted, your post deleted and potentially even banned. Attempting to swat isn't just not allowed on the site, but most members call out ac…

I mean we can look at what happened to Chloe Sagal to see what "look (and laugh) but don't touch" does to people.

Re: People are demanding that Cloudflare drop Kiwi Farms

#86

Post by bauruine »

notthisagain2 wrote: post #63
HereIGoAgain wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that, much like the alleged body count, they do nothing of the sort. See my post above. They don't harass or even troll. It's literally one of the core rules of the site. Look (and laugh) but don't touch! If you ever try to organize something on-site, you'll get down-voted, your post deleted and potentially even banned. Attempting to swat isn't just not allowed on the site, but most members call out ac…

> Harassment campaigns by Kiwi Farms users are known to have contributed to the suicides of three individuals.[9] The Kiwi Farms community considers it a goal to drive its targets to suicide, and has celebrated such deaths with a counter on the website.[11]: 55, 61 They have used social media reporting systems to mass-report posts by harassment targets in which they've expressed suicidal thoughts or intentions, with…

Do you have source for that? The book in the Wikipedia article cites [0], [1] and [2] but i couldn't find anything related to suicide counter in them. Also I'm not exactly sure why Kiwi Farms gets _all_ the blame here. It's Facebook deleting the posts of people that need help because i guess it's against their guidelines.

[0]: https://variety.com/2018/gaming/news/chloe-sagal-death-12028...

[1]: https://wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=308671

[2]: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2016/07/kiwi-farms-the-webs-...

Re: People are demanding that Cloudflare drop Kiwi Farms

#87

Post by cholantesh »

deepdriver wrote: post #83
cholantesh wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This issue is highly ideological and politicized on both sides. Suggesting medical transition for any minor is not currently supported by the evidence. Neither is conversion therapy, but SEGM happily associates itself with advocates for it , along with evangelical organizations. Indeed, such advocates are found among 'expert witnesses' in the Tavistock case. Maybe Vice should report on these associations. Maybe peop…

As usual, trans activists have co-opted language of the gay rights movement (conversion therapy) to describe an altogether different situation: https://segm.org/danger_of_conflation If you care about kids, don’t ignore the growing body of evidence that suggests youth transition is overwhelmingly harmful. Don’t ignore stories like Chloe’s: https://twitter.com/ChoooCole/status/1560495012999151616 The harm will be obvio…

I don't think there is any 'danger of conflation', particularly, again, given that SEGM is also closely linked to evangelical organizations, who were trying this sort of thing 20 years ago with intelligent design.

>If you care about kids, don’t ignore the growing body of evidence that suggests youth transition is overwhelmingly harmful. Don’t ignore stories like Chloe’s

I think that the fact that transphobes can weaponize a few more anecdotes about detransitioning this year than last year is not particularly meaningful. In the aggregate, these stories account for a tiny minority:

https://epath.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Boof-of-abstract...

https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS...

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262734734_An_Analys...

https://www.jsm.jsexmed.org/article/S1743-6095(18)30057-2/fu...

The largest cohort comprises 8% of the sample, 62% of whom did so because they were pressured by their family, not because they had regrets about choosing to transition.

>The harm will be obvious to all once the lawsuits get rolling

Has the harm of MMR vaccination become obvious because lawsuits have managed to 'get rolling' and even succeeded in that context?

Re: People are demanding that Cloudflare drop Kiwi Farms

#88

Post by hackeraccount »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #82
psyc wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can certainly understand how that would be upsetting. I'm sure you understand that KF isn't about respecting.... anybody. At all. They are as irreverent as anything I've ever seen. But yes, they're attacked almost exclusively in bad faith by everybody. Everybody. As soon as somebody says "There's a website dedicated to making trans people commit suicide!" in this our Age of Outrage, there is a part of most people t…

This is a really good example of sealioning. Saving this for later. Thank you.

Arguing that people acting disingenuously is a problem with the Internet seems like going after low hanging fruit.

Re: People are demanding that Cloudflare drop Kiwi Farms

#89

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

joecool1029 wrote: post #47

Let's be clear: Kiwi Farms is a ball of hate just like the Daily Stormer is. But the reason CF hasn't dropped them is none of the site operators will make the claim Cloudflare are open supporters of Kiwi Farms, while DS's editor decided to be cocky and make these claims. Kiwi Farms operators can always distance itself from members calling for violence and ban the accounts when it gets out of hand, just as Reddit has…

> But the reason CF hasn't dropped them is none of the site operators will make the claim Cloudflare are open supporters of Kiwi Farms, while DS's editor decided to be cocky and make these claims.

Er, I don't think that's it:

> Now I can make an argument to say that we kicked them off because they they had alleged that we were supporters of theirs, or that they had harassed people who are submitting abuse complaints or lots of those things, but I think that’s a little bit hand-waving. If they had been a blog about shoes online, we would have cut them a lot more slack than we did. And if that’s the case, then that means that our feeling toward their content influenced our decision: which is the opposite of being neutral. I think that they are the exception that that shows why it’s so important to have to have rules.

- https://www.geekwire.com/2017/interview-cloudflares-ceo-stil...

If the CEO of Cloudflare thinks it's "little bit hand-waving" to say that claims of support were the reason they were dropped, I'm willing to say that's probably not it.

Re: People are demanding that Cloudflare drop Kiwi Farms

#90

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

notthisagain2 wrote: post #64
emptyparadise wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did somebody post a link to HN on that site or something?

Yes they did: https://kiwifarms.net/search/15388568/?q=https%3A%2F%2Fnews.... I guess that's part of the reason why there are very specific accounts in this thread promoting obvious misinformation without citing any sources.

> Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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