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Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

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Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#231

Post by hulitu »

preisschild wrote: post #212
phatfish wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would guess it is because GrapheneOS does not pass the Google "SafteyNet" check. The Android distros that are more well known do not pass by default due to Google coming after them if they do. LineageOS has not passed it for the last few years. There are pretty simple patches you can apply though to get it passing, assuming nothing else about the phone triggers it.

I don't even have the Google Services installed on my phone because I consider them a security and privacy risk. For now I can use my computer, because they fortunately also have a website, but I could see in the near-future that you have to have this app installed.

Well that is the failure. If you don't give data to Google ( or Apple, or MS etc) you are considered by them as "a security and privacy risk.". Their privacy and security is at risk.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#232

Post by xorcist »

ElCheapo wrote: post #185
nivenkos wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it though? Not long ago many European countries required some form of digital COVID pass for travel. Likewise for doing taxes e.g. here in Sweden BankID and Kivra are practically required unless you want to be waiting weeks for letters and queueing at the office.

>Not long ago many European countries required some form of digital COVID pass for travel. no they didn't? you could just access the platform on your computer and print the QR code the old fashioned way. Hell, you could do that without even having any electronics, you could just go to the library and print it there. >unless you want to be waiting weeks for letters and queueing at the office. this reads to me as "if y…

> "if you don't use these digital systems you have to do things like they were before digital systems"

There's also the expectation from society. Even getting that covid shot was hard without an app, to the point of an extra long queue where nothing worked and in the end a lady told me sternly that I shouldn't be there and to get with the times and that I am young enough to be able to use a smartphone. As if that was the problem ...

That was just covid. Doing (non-trivial) taxes on paper involves some calculation, and I am liable if I get it wrong, whereas I know the web page does all calculations the right way.

Then there's school reports, public transportation, public libraries, calling in sick to work, taking out pension, the list is long and every single step of it is an inconvenience constantly reminding me to just stick with the non-free, mainstream, controlled by a private company, way.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#233

Post by xorcist »

Legogris wrote: post #172
nivenkos wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it though? Not long ago many European countries required some form of digital COVID pass for travel. Likewise for doing taxes e.g. here in Sweden BankID and Kivra are practically required unless you want to be waiting weeks for letters and queueing at the office.

Last time I tried (granted, years ago), BankID was still relatively straight-forward to set up and use on a PC. Not all sites support the flow, though. Authorities should also still accept alternatives like Freja (if there's anything they won't close the door on it's making it straightforward to pay your taxes, I guess). I'm far from happy wit the situation and would prefer that authorities take an open standards-app…

But is it straight-forward to set up on any PC, or just those locked down with proprietary single vendor controlled software?

In the latter case, it is not in any way better than a proprietary phone. In practice probably worse, since it is easier and cheaper to keep an extra phone around.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#234

Post by GekkePrutser »

pjmlp wrote: post #230
GekkePrutser wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this is just not feasible for something like termux. Termux is the equivalent of a Linux distribution on Android. If they would let that go there would be no reason for it to exist. The Android way would be to publish all packages individually on the app store. Termux has tens of thousands of packages. This would simply be insane and Google wouldn't permit it.

It is, there are Java APIs for most of the stuff they want to do, use JNI instead of Linux syscalls.

That was one of the issues yes. The execve() thing.

But a bigger problem is that an app is not allowed to modify its own files anymore, and is not allowed to run executables from 'data' storage. This is much harder to work around:

https://wiki.termux.com/wiki/FAQ

Even if they work around the execve thing, Google will probably refuse them in the store when they run executables not included in the APK. And the question is what will be locked down in future Android versions. Android 12 is already iffy according to the above FAQ. That's why I'm worried about it

Fwiw: I don't think Google is actively trying to kill it, no. But it's just not something needed for most apps so they don't want to facilitate it.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#235

Post by type0 »

makz wrote: post #24

Before answering that question I'd ask: why would we want that? My answer is no, it didn't work on the desktop, it won't work on the smartphone, for more or less the same reasons. As much as I like Linux and FOSS, Linux is just a bad OS for the average consumer. For hackers, makers, DYI enthusiasts, etc. Linux is wonderful, however, what's the market size for a Linux smart phone for this people? I bet it's tiny.

My older relatives tend to disagree with you, Ubuntu runs better than Windows and is easier to use (especially on dated hardware). Admittedly if proprietary programs were a requirement it wouldn't be possible, but that isn't a fault of Linux.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#236

Post by xorcist »

_carbyau_ wrote: post #164
3np wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fortunately, we don't have the government handing out free handset so opting out is still a legal right and a practically realistic option. My concern is that if few enough people do so, this will no longer be the case for long.

The crazy thing was during COVID everyone seemed to launch an app - iOS or Android. What happened to websites? Did they suddenly become impossible to secure or communicate with?

The sales pitch is that you get to "own" the customer, in the sense that you have more control over the user experience. Fewer ad blockers, notifications to keep the user "engaged" etc. With more control over the device there is also the potential of easier support. There are plenty metrics collected so there is data to show that all these are true.

But all this is now inherent to the market. The few agencies who didn't offer apps went mostly out of business. So nobody needs to know why they want it anymore, it's just what is being offered and the world moves on.

The open web may prove to be a historical curiosity. Just like personal universal turing machines. The jury is still out, hopefully there will be a movement back in our lifetimes.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#237

Post by Hublium »

_carbyau_ wrote: post #164
3np wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fortunately, we don't have the government handing out free handset so opting out is still a legal right and a practically realistic option. My concern is that if few enough people do so, this will no longer be the case for long.

The crazy thing was during COVID everyone seemed to launch an app - iOS or Android. What happened to websites? Did they suddenly become impossible to secure or communicate with?

This is a case where I want to mention Austria as a positive example: The vaccination certificate app is open source on Github, so you can compile it yourself and not need to use the Play Store.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#238

Post by NoboruWataya »

preisschild wrote: post #200
_carbyau_ wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the ID monopoly and Payment monopoly refuse to support other operating systems" This is my issue. I am commonly hearing people ask "What are you, iOS or Android?" - IE as if it is inherent to the person themselves and there are only two choices. This is scary. I love the idea of having an alternative to iOS and Android. But I also need to function within society. This shouldn't be a choice.

Even a non-popular Android isn't a choice for govmt e-id. I use a hardened Android distro (GrapheneOS) on my phone. Even with a locked bootloader and no root my countries (austria) e-government app and my banking app blocks me due to a "integrity check" failing.

I would like to get a Pixel with GrapheneOS for my next phone but this is holding me back. Even if some of my banking apps are currently reported to work, there is no guarantee they won't break in future. It's too risky for me unfortunately, which is annoying.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#240

Post by lrvick »

nivenkos wrote: post #53
lrvick wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android is Linux but it has nowhere close to the fully open source freedom of a traditional Linux workstation. This is why I carry a tiny linux laptop.

What do you use a small laptop? Seems there's nothing ultralight and small like the Asus Eee and Acer Aspire One these days (even though you'd think it'd be easier with ARM now).

The GPD Pocket is what I carry in a leg bag.
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