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Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

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Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#161

Post by 3np »

_carbyau_ wrote: post #123
z3t4 wrote: post #39

Nokia had Linux on their smartphone until Microsoft bought them and stopped everything, they even shut down the app store. The OS was called MeeGo. Part of the Nokia team however started their own company called Jolla and still produce smartphones running Linux, they call their OS Sailfish. (ignoring the fact that Android also uses the Linux kernel). The problem with alternative phone OS:es is that in the country I l…

"the ID monopoly and Payment monopoly refuse to support other operating systems" This is my issue. I am commonly hearing people ask "What are you, iOS or Android?" - IE as if it is inherent to the person themselves and there are only two choices. This is scary. I love the idea of having an alternative to iOS and Android. But I also need to function within society. This shouldn't be a choice.

Fortunately, we don't have the government handing out free handset so opting out is still a legal right and a practically realistic option. My concern is that if few enough people do so, this will no longer be the case for long.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#162

Post by morepork »

matrix12 wrote: post #10
rbanffy wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erm... Android is Linux.

I think they conflate GNU with Linux kernel.

Android runs toybox (or at least used to), which implements many of the GNU tools. But I think the complaint is that much of the userland to have a useful phone experience is proprietary.

If you could install all the GNU tools into AOSP Linux (probably not that hard), you still don't have a useful phone.

It's not even the desktop environment (think GNOME/KDE/etc.), as there is a good enough version in AOSP.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#163

Post by nivenkos »

3np wrote: post #161
_carbyau_ wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the ID monopoly and Payment monopoly refuse to support other operating systems" This is my issue. I am commonly hearing people ask "What are you, iOS or Android?" - IE as if it is inherent to the person themselves and there are only two choices. This is scary. I love the idea of having an alternative to iOS and Android. But I also need to function within society. This shouldn't be a choice.

Fortunately, we don't have the government handing out free handset so opting out is still a legal right and a practically realistic option. My concern is that if few enough people do so, this will no longer be the case for long.

Is it though? Not long ago many European countries required some form of digital COVID pass for travel.

Likewise for doing taxes e.g. here in Sweden BankID and Kivra are practically required unless you want to be waiting weeks for letters and queueing at the office.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#164

Post by _carbyau_ »

3np wrote: post #161
_carbyau_ wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the ID monopoly and Payment monopoly refuse to support other operating systems" This is my issue. I am commonly hearing people ask "What are you, iOS or Android?" - IE as if it is inherent to the person themselves and there are only two choices. This is scary. I love the idea of having an alternative to iOS and Android. But I also need to function within society. This shouldn't be a choice.

Fortunately, we don't have the government handing out free handset so opting out is still a legal right and a practically realistic option. My concern is that if few enough people do so, this will no longer be the case for long.

The crazy thing was during COVID everyone seemed to launch an app - iOS or Android.

What happened to websites? Did they suddenly become impossible to secure or communicate with?

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#165

Post by nivenkos »

makz wrote: post #24

Before answering that question I'd ask: why would we want that? My answer is no, it didn't work on the desktop, it won't work on the smartphone, for more or less the same reasons. As much as I like Linux and FOSS, Linux is just a bad OS for the average consumer. For hackers, makers, DYI enthusiasts, etc. Linux is wonderful, however, what's the market size for a Linux smart phone for this people? I bet it's tiny.

To ensure a fair market, look at Spotify's complaints for example - https://timetoplayfair.com/

Right now Apple can pre-load Apple TV and Apple Music on all their devices, put it on the top of their store and search results, make all deep links go to their services and charge all other services a 30% fee even for in-app subscriptions making it a hassle for users to sign up to competitors.

Spotify, Netflix, Valve, etc. should all see the importance of having a fully open platform especially now that phones are far more common than laptops or desktops. And governments too given they want us to have digital ID, digital banking and digital inbox services for filing taxes, COVID passes, etc.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#166

Post by dailykoder »

nivenkos wrote: post #163
3np wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fortunately, we don't have the government handing out free handset so opting out is still a legal right and a practically realistic option. My concern is that if few enough people do so, this will no longer be the case for long.

Is it though? Not long ago many European countries required some form of digital COVID pass for travel. Likewise for doing taxes e.g. here in Sweden BankID and Kivra are practically required unless you want to be waiting weeks for letters and queueing at the office.

You could've gotten the QR-Code on a piece of paper, without a phone (which still is ridiculous that they forced people to use some random QR-Code and ignored the internationally accepted vaccination card of the WHO)

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#167

Post by nivenkos »

jnwatson wrote: post #79
hrbf wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a niche market, possibly. However, I just don't see Valve as a company being interested in becoming a phone manufacturer. What would realistically be in for them? It's strategically mostly irrelevant to their core business, with the sole exception of the Steam Store. But to create, develop and support a whole phone platform (hard- and software) just to sell mobile games? I don't see it.

You underestimate the size of the opportunity. The mobile game market was $119 billion in 2021.

Exactly, maybe they could do a "gaming phone" like Nokia tried before.

The Steam Deck is very impressive.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#168

Post by distances »

pxc wrote: post #151
z3t4 wrote: post #39

Nokia had Linux on their smartphone until Microsoft bought them and stopped everything, they even shut down the app store. The OS was called MeeGo. Part of the Nokia team however started their own company called Jolla and still produce smartphones running Linux, they call their OS Sailfish. (ignoring the fact that Android also uses the Linux kernel). The problem with alternative phone OS:es is that in the country I l…

I took a real interest in 6 or 7 years ago, when it was first coming out. I was excited in part by how much it (as a downstream project of MeeGo) resembled Real Linux™ internally: systemd, RPM/zypper, Wayland. It was awesome . The way it all fit together felt thoughtful and sane. The terminal environment was like a real desktop Linux userland. And the Sailfish UI was really outstanding. It was simple, uniform, and th…

I also got the first Jolla phone, but I had a different experience. I found it somewhat unintuitive to use (lots of misswipes, and unclear what you could swipe and when), but my main gripe was the UI style. It was a disappointment after the absolutely gorgeous Meego UI in N9.

I used it for two weeks, switched to Android, and started learning Android development.

I probably started with unrealistic expectations, and I obviously don't want to belittle their work, but I think there are good reasons it flopped even in it's native market in Finland after the early excitement.

In any case it was a small miracle that such a small company managed to create and ship an independent Linux smartphone with their completely own UI to general public, with a full set of basic requirements from a browser and app store to a calculator and email app. An amazing feat.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#169

Post by iE4mHBzmoYezwbx »

aquaduck wrote: post #58
makz wrote: post #24

Before answering that question I'd ask: why would we want that? My answer is no, it didn't work on the desktop, it won't work on the smartphone, for more or less the same reasons. As much as I like Linux and FOSS, Linux is just a bad OS for the average consumer. For hackers, makers, DYI enthusiasts, etc. Linux is wonderful, however, what's the market size for a Linux smart phone for this people? I bet it's tiny.

Didn't work on the desktop? I've been running Linux exclusively on my desktops for 15 years. Desktop Linux is better today than it's ever been. Why does every OS need to be suitable for average consumers? Librem and Pine64 are doing great work in the mobile Linux space on the hardware side, and projects like PostmarketOS are doing great work on the software side. These are niche products for motivated enthusiasts, as…

> Desktop Linux is better today than it's ever been.

I honestly have to strongly disagree with that. Desktop Linux is more complex, more fragile, and more choice-less than 10-15 years ago. It might have a bit better hardware compatibility... but even back then it would run on just about anything.

> Librem and Pine64 are doing great work in the mobile Linux space on the hardware side

But can you actually use them as a phone? Can you use all (or even any) of the apps that people want to use?

> They'll never grow to billions of users, nor should they. The tech industry's "grow massive or the product is worthless" mindset is pathological, in my opinion.

Without that, they'll also never get the things that people want their phones to do.

Re: Is there hope for Linux on smartphones? [video]

#170

Post by jcelerier »

distances wrote: post #168
pxc wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I took a real interest in 6 or 7 years ago, when it was first coming out. I was excited in part by how much it (as a downstream project of MeeGo) resembled Real Linux™ internally: systemd, RPM/zypper, Wayland. It was awesome . The way it all fit together felt thoughtful and sane. The terminal environment was like a real desktop Linux userland. And the Sailfish UI was really outstanding. It was simple, uniform, and th…

I also got the first Jolla phone, but I had a different experience. I found it somewhat unintuitive to use (lots of misswipes, and unclear what you could swipe and when), but my main gripe was the UI style. It was a disappointment after the absolutely gorgeous Meego UI in N9. I used it for two weeks, switched to Android, and started learning Android development. I probably started with unrealistic expectations, and I…

Interesting, to this day I remember the Jolla as the only phone I ever had that I actively enjoyed using
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