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The erosion of the Mac experience

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Re: The erosion of the Mac experience

#81

Post by echelon »

mfcl wrote: post #62
what-imright wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jobs was against dogma. It’s a changing world and the perspective and input of the young is valuable. What exactly are you moving on to? Ubuntu? Windows? Behind macOS is the most valuable company in the world adding fixes, features and security patches. There isn’t any other computing solution today that can deliver what Apple does.

I don't use a single Apple product. What am I missing?

Remember 2000-2005 Microsoft that tried to lock you into Internet Explorer and was deeply into this thing called "trusted computing"?

That's what you're missing.

You're required to sign in for updates so they can track you. No software patches without monitoring, I guess.

No way to remove iTunes or stop Safari from trying to take over again and again. Even if you don't want music to open that way.

Steve Balmer would be proud.

Remember 2005-8 when you tried Ubuntu for the first time and were wowed with Compiz Fusion compared to the drab Windows XP/Vista/etc window management?

That's the feeling you get every time you step away from MacOs finder and the atrocious Mac window manager.

You shouldn't need a 3rd party plugin to manage window placement. It shouldn't be difficult to navigate to a directory via a path or run a program or have the file browser automatically resize its icon view. But that's Mac.

Re: The erosion of the Mac experience

#82

Post by donedealomg »

what-imright wrote: post #66
mfcl wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't use a single Apple product. What am I missing?

e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g. but hey I’m jealous because you have so many pleasurable experiences to come. I suggest jumping in and buying the new iPhone 14. Go all in get the Pro Max. You’ll get a massive return on the investment. I’m a tech junkie, I’ve had it all. Doesn’t get better than Apple

No post body was provided.

Re: The erosion of the Mac experience

#83

Post by Jensson »

1-6 wrote: post #61
runjake wrote: post #43

The key point in this Twitter rant is that the SWEs who understood the Mac (and NEXTSTEP, for that matter) have aged out. Most everyone has retired or moved onto other opportunities. There's very few of them left at Apple. And they're often overruled by younger managers. Apple is hiring tons of fresh new SWEs who have no understanding, nor desire to understand "The Mac Way". I'm not saying this is right or wrong, the…

I think Apple has already sailed the seas of no return. Another company that puts users first will eventually arise and take its place. Life is a cycle of highs and lows. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.

> Another company that puts users first will eventually arise and take its place.

I doubt it, new companies spring up like mushrooms when fields gets disruptively innovated, but big companies tend to stay otherwise.

Can see it here, lots of shifts in the biggest companies the first half, while the second half is dominated by Apple, Microsoft, Google, Alibaba, Facebook and Amazon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSuloaATQRA

Or ask yourself, when was the last time a new American car brand was created? Tesla thanks to the electric car disruption, but other than Tesla it was a very long time ago. Same thing will happen in software once disruptive events get less common.

Re: The erosion of the Mac experience

#84

Post by linguae »

what-imright wrote: post #60
runjake wrote: post #43

The key point in this Twitter rant is that the SWEs who understood the Mac (and NEXTSTEP, for that matter) have aged out. Most everyone has retired or moved onto other opportunities. There's very few of them left at Apple. And they're often overruled by younger managers. Apple is hiring tons of fresh new SWEs who have no understanding, nor desire to understand "The Mac Way". I'm not saying this is right or wrong, the…

Jobs was against dogma. It’s a changing world and the perspective and input of the young is valuable. What exactly are you moving on to? Ubuntu? Windows? Behind macOS is the most valuable company in the world adding fixes, features and security patches. There isn’t any other computing solution today that can deliver what Apple does.

I moved on to Windows 10 and FreeBSD after many years on the Mac (I refused to upgrade my Macs beyond Mojave), but this is an interim solution for me since neither Windows 10 nor existing FOSS desktops match even Mac OS X Tiger when it comes to the user experience.

My long-term solution is building my own desktop environment that is inspired by the classic Macintosh Human Interface Guidelines, but also takes ideas from OpenDoc, Smalltalk environments, the Symbolics Genera Lisp machine OS, and Plan 9 (itself influenced by Project Oberon when it comes to the GUI) to form an environment that encourages flexible, programmable tools built from smaller components but can be arranged to create complete software solutions, kind of like how a painter arranges colors and tools. Unfortunately I’m still early in the design phase and I have no code to share, and this is also a side project since I work full-time as a researcher and thus I can’t devote my full time to this, but I hope that by 2024 I’ll have an early version working and released.

I am inspired by the vision of personal computing pioneers like Alan Kay, and I hate to see personal computing being transformed from user empowerment to platforms for selling services and serving ads to a captive audience.

Re: The erosion of the Mac experience

#85

Post by cc101 »

I'm facing a bitter conflict with Mac App Review. I feel so poorly about this that I can't sleep, and my mind is in turmoil. After 37 years writing Mac software, I'm wondering if there is anything left of the Mac and of the Apple spirit that made such a difference in my life. I hate to give up my current work (5 years and 13,000 lines of code), but in a sense it would be liberating to be free of Apple.

Re: The erosion of the Mac experience

#86

Post by treve »

cc101 wrote: post #85

I'm facing a bitter conflict with Mac App Review. I feel so poorly about this that I can't sleep, and my mind is in turmoil. After 37 years writing Mac software, I'm wondering if there is anything left of the Mac and of the Apple spirit that made such a difference in my life. I hate to give up my current work (5 years and 13,000 lines of code), but in a sense it would be liberating to be free of Apple.

I've had very similar feelings with a different ecosystem. The reality is that you don't have to be a Mac developer. You can jump ship, try something else and even come back later if it didn't work out. I tied my identity as a developer to a technology. When the technology got worse, it made me feel worse.

Trying something else felt like a break-up, and I haven't attained the same reputation I had in my the ecosystem that I had spent 15 years pm; but this was 6 years ago and I'm glad I moved on and not looking back. It _will_ be liberating; it's just a soulless corporation at this point.

Reach out if you want to chat. This really resonated with me!

Re: The erosion of the Mac experience

#87

Post by kogepathic »

echelon wrote: post #81
mfcl wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't use a single Apple product. What am I missing?

Remember 2000-2005 Microsoft that tried to lock you into Internet Explorer and was deeply into this thing called "trusted computing"? That's what you're missing. You're required to sign in for updates so they can track you. No software patches without monitoring, I guess. No way to remove iTunes or stop Safari from trying to take over again and again. Even if you don't want music to open that way. Steve Balmer would…

> Also you're required to sign in for updates so they can track you. No software patches without monitoring.

This hasn't been my experience. macOS still incessantly bothers you about OS updates even if you decline signing into an Apple account during first-boot, and you can download major release updaters independently from the Mac Store (e.g. using the script from OSX-KVM).

[1] https://github.com/kholia/OSX-KVM

Re: The erosion of the Mac experience

#88

Post by ehvatum »

what-imright wrote: post #66
mfcl wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't use a single Apple product. What am I missing?

e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g. but hey I’m jealous because you have so many pleasurable experiences to come. I suggest jumping in and buying the new iPhone 14. Go all in get the Pro Max. You’ll get a massive return on the investment. I’m a tech junkie, I’ve had it all. Doesn’t get better than Apple

What are the three things you like most about Mac OS?

Re: The erosion of the Mac experience

#89

Post by kitsunesoba »

eyelidlessness wrote: post #73

The erosion of the Mac experience began with Sublime Text. It’s a perfectly cromulent editor, but it was the inflection point where the Mac was becoming an important business target for efforts outside the ecosystem, and where developers who hadn’t been on Macs by choice were being issued them by their employers. It was the first widely adopted third party app on the platform that was both non-native and adopted enth…

The thing is though, even though Sublime Text doesn't adhere to all Mac UI conventions, it does respect the most important ones and its appearance can be brought further inline with custom themes. Additionally, it's always performed excellently which makes up for shortcomings in overall "nativeness".

This cannot be said for much if not most cross platform software that runs on macOS — much of it is strictly least common denominator when it comes to UI conventions, system integration, etc and more often than not is slow and bloated.

I would say that the erosion started in earnest with Atom. People flocked to it because it was free (even though Sublime kinda was too, being nagware) despite its performance being horrendous and its lack of maclikeness, setting precedence for the acceptance of generic UI, sluggishness, and high resource consumption.

Re: The erosion of the Mac experience

#90

Post by Gigachad »

rc_kas wrote: post #14

Windows sucks MacOS is headed towards suck If you want a glimpse of the future of desktops : r/unixporn

I have only been using macOS for a few years now but it’s only been getting better for me. The new control panel thing is great, the M1 is mind blowing and everything mostly just works.

Have been using Linux for 10 years now and while I still respect the work that has gone in, you have to be very forgiving of all the stuff that just doesn’t work right.

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