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Huanan Seafood Market in Wuhan was early epicenter of the Covid-19 pandemic

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Re: Huanan Seafood Market in Wuhan was early epicenter of the Covid-19 pandemic

#101

Post by ZeroGravitas »

LatteLazy wrote: post #77

It's been fascinating and terrifying watching people (in general and on here) jump to answers that are nice but wrong (China did it on purpose, You can cure it with X, it's just the flu, etc) over the last few years. We will never know for certain what happened. It's honestly killed me support for democracy. 95% of people seem to be incapable of thinking about uncertainty and living with not knowing. They just jump h…

I generally find that, while there are a worrying amount of people with insane takes on things, often reaching 30% in various polls when something becomes "political", that the majority generally gets it right. If only there was a bit more democracy, a lot of bad things could be avoided.

Having said that, I looked up the polling on lab leaks and American democracy loses on this one:

https://morningconsult.com/2021/06/09/coronavirus-lab-leak-w...

Re: Huanan Seafood Market in Wuhan was early epicenter of the Covid-19 pandemic

#102

Post by ctoth »

ravitation wrote: post #38
mikeyouse wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope - HN is one of the worst 'smart' places on the internet for Covid discussion. Every single thread immediately devolves into completely ascientific conspiracy ranting.

This is also not limited to just COVID discussion either. Most things that aren't somehow related to day-to-day software development devolve into unsubstantiated, or ill-informed, "ranting." It's a source of constant disappointment.

Personally if I were constantly disappointed by a website I would take the extraordinary step of simply... not using that website anymore, rather than coming on that website and telling everybody how ill-informed they were. I always have been a bit odd though.

Re: Huanan Seafood Market in Wuhan was early epicenter of the Covid-19 pandemic

#103

Post by AlanYx »

neuronexmachina wrote: post #98
flybrand wrote: post #41

The same visual analysis, when showing the location of the lab, could lead to other conclusions. Here’s a link to that, if we’re open to differing perspectives. https://igorchudov.substack.com/p/lie-exposed-bbc-says-covid...

Other posts from the same author, to help evaluate their overall credibility: * "Sars-Cov-2 was Lab Made Under Project DEFUSE" * "Was Sars-Cov-2 DESIGNED to Spawn so Many Variants?" * "Vaccine Shedding Finally Proven!" * ""COVID Vaccine Technology" will Make Varroa Mites Infertile" * "Boosters Now PROMOTE Covid Deaths in Europe" * "Developmental Disorders in Babies born to Vaccinated Mothers?"

That author is probably a crank, but the particular image he's critiquing is Fig. 1(a) of the linked paper (reproduced by the BBC), and the locations of both Wuhan institutes are not wrong.

Re: Huanan Seafood Market in Wuhan was early epicenter of the Covid-19 pandemic

#104

Post by neuronexmachina »

mikeyouse wrote: post #28
WaxProlix wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The lab leak is more plausible > you cannot claim one is more probable Am I missing something here?

Nope - HN is one of the worst 'smart' places on the internet for Covid discussion. Every single thread immediately devolves into completely ascientific conspiracy ranting.

IMHO, you can tell from the comments who actually read the linked paper, and who read only supposed debunkings of the paper on Substack/etc by Covid conspiracy theorists.

Re: Huanan Seafood Market in Wuhan was early epicenter of the Covid-19 pandemic

#105

Post by noworriesnate »

sudosysgen wrote: post #76
siva7 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s an interesting theory and i suppose not even that far fetched

It is far fetched. Labs typically engage in destructive testing of their animals.

This lab was a joint venture of the French and Chinese. The French pulled out and sounded the alarm about how careless the Chinese were. So yeah it’s very plausible that such flagrant violations took place.

Re: Huanan Seafood Market in Wuhan was early epicenter of the Covid-19 pandemic

#106

Post by chiefalchemist »

marcosdumay wrote: post #60
chiefalchemist wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Vaccines are drugs that trigger immune system response. Always have been Not really drugs per se, but at 50k feet yes that's true (but no entirely accurate). However, the mRNA technology is new, different from traditional vaccines, and effectively untested. Untested until Covid. This isn't a judgement or a knock. Just a fact.

All of the companies that created the mRNA vaccines for COVID had already a few years of life, and those few years were all spent testing their vaccines. It wasn't enough testing, and a large scale test wasn't economically viable. But they also weren't completely untested. (And guess what the world spent 6 months doing at some high death rate times? Yep, large scale testing them.)

Fair enough. Then let's go with: not properly tested and approved in alignment with tradition.

The rub for many was / is the quickness of the process in contrast with the cock-sureness of the narrative (i.e., don't worry about it...just trust us...). There was also the disconnect between "trust the science" vs limited data and the shutting down of any question. Real Science is fearless.

Re: Huanan Seafood Market in Wuhan was early epicenter of the Covid-19 pandemic

#107

Post by koliber »

dangom wrote: post #13

Conspiracy theories aside, Worebey's Science paper is not unanimously well received by the scientific community, and the data analysis was shown to be partly flawed. Here's a discussion on inference pointing to references and sources that argue against the results of the paper: https://inference-review.com/article/thunder-out-of-china It also raises eyebrows the fact that no animal has ever been found to be positive…

> No source animal was found.

Since this was a food market, it's possible and likely that all the source animals were eaten by the time the study was being done.

Re: Huanan Seafood Market in Wuhan was early epicenter of the Covid-19 pandemic

#108

Post by ARandomerDude »

neuronexmachina wrote: post #91
ejb999 wrote: post #36

I wonder how many people who are seemingly willing to believe the self-serving CCP party-line on this, would be just as believing of the owners of a nuclear power plant in their town, once the drinking water became radioactive, claiming "it didn't come from the plant, someone else down the street must have done it" - that is just about as believable as this.

> I wonder how many people who are seemingly willing to believe the self-serving CCP party-line on this Which of the paper's authors do you believe are beholden to the "self-serving CCP party-line"? Do you see flaws in the paper's analysis, or are you perhaps employing a thought-terminating cliche?

Your comment is orthogonal to the parent's comment and there's no reason to assign malice to the commenter.

It's quite plausible that the CCP is lying and the paper authors are honest about their findings. The problem is the analysis is only as good as the inputs. From the article:

> "Chinese government notified the World Health Organization (WHO) of an outbreak of severe pneumonia of unknown etiology in Wuhan...after careful examination of reported case histories..."

Note that:

1. The CCP claims the virus was unknown to them.

2. The CCP is in charge of what case histories are analyzed, and can carefully select those which point away from the lab leak.

Re: Huanan Seafood Market in Wuhan was early epicenter of the Covid-19 pandemic

#109

Post by tgv »

neuronexmachina wrote: post #91
ejb999 wrote: post #36

I wonder how many people who are seemingly willing to believe the self-serving CCP party-line on this, would be just as believing of the owners of a nuclear power plant in their town, once the drinking water became radioactive, claiming "it didn't come from the plant, someone else down the street must have done it" - that is just about as believable as this.

> I wonder how many people who are seemingly willing to believe the self-serving CCP party-line on this Which of the paper's authors do you believe are beholden to the "self-serving CCP party-line"? Do you see flaws in the paper's analysis, or are you perhaps employing a thought-terminating cliche?

I don't know to what degree there's truth in it, but Marion Koopmans has been in hot waters over her connections to the Chinese government. Last year, she has also publicly stated that the search started too late, and that they have negotiated about the outcome with the Chinese government (e.g., https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2021/03/30/een-goed-resultaat-a403..., paywalled).

Re: Huanan Seafood Market in Wuhan was early epicenter of the Covid-19 pandemic

#110

Post by LinuxBender »

Ekaros wrote: post #92
LinuxBender wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hypothetically speaking, if it were a lab-leak and if it were a malicious lab tech or an that was mad at the world or compromised by a political actor, they could have dumped/micronize sprayed a vial [1] into the food market which would make the statement not entirely false. This is of course a lazy theory and would be nearly impossible to test out. [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksrWmPMZGiY [video, gets NSFW…

On that basis it could have also been attack to discredit China by CIA or like... Release pandemic from China then politically and economically attack them. Entirely something reasonable to consider considering history of USA...

Absolutely valid point. This theoretical scenario could be anyone that believes they stand to gain from this event. I updated my comment to reflect your point.
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