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A chess robot in Moscow has broken the finger of its human opponent

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Re: A chess robot in Moscow has broken the finger of its human opponent

#301

Post by foverzar »

drew-y wrote: post #290
foverzar wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

I never said anything about Russia. I am talking about the people in charge of this event specifically. > the robot must be given time to react. But the boy was in a hurry and the robot grabbed him A soft blame, but a blame nonetheless. It's an attempt to divert responsibility, no matter how you look at it. They were ultimately in charge of the situation, it's never a good sign when the leaders immediately try to ass…

> A soft blame, but a blame nonetheless.

So, where are you from exactly? I am curious which culture draws an equation sign between "x triggered y" and "x is to blame for y".

Diverting responsibility is making virtuous political statements, instead of analysing what went unexpected.

Re: A chess robot in Moscow has broken the finger of its human opponent

#302

Post by gdy »

palmetieri2000 wrote: post #185
birdyrooster wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on, there is no way they are that cartoonish.

This videogame review from a YouTube channel called Warlockracy is actually also a really interesting perspective on at least some aspects of Russian subcultures and their prominence, I found it a surprisingly insightful social commentary wrapped up in an entertaining vid. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJ_PiXLVaJ8 (~45mins) The second video is more serious but also rather interesting (clips from it became very p…

"Operating under the assumption that the video isn't misrepresenting the cultural aspects of Russia"

And why do you operate under this assumption?

The guy keeps saying '[In Russia] conservatives have always had power.' Was Lenin a conservative? Very few countries undergone such radical changes as Russia.

The one thing he repeats even more is 'infallible Tsar'. Let me tell you a secret -- Putin have ruled for so long because life for ordinary Russians was getting better despite all his fuckups. Now this have changed and we have entered very 'interesting' times.

Re: A chess robot in Moscow has broken the finger of its human opponent

#303

Post by drew-y »

Ekaros wrote: post #299
drew-y wrote: post #149

This is appalling. There is no world in which an industrial robot like that should be operating next to a child. Their force sensors are not nearly sensitive enough to stop before causing serious injury. Going fast enough, they can absolutely kill you. This just screams negligence to me. Cannot believe they tried to blame it on the child. There are robots, called Cobots, designed specifically for this type of environ…

Yes, and some countries even allow car sized robots to operate next to pedestrians. That level of carelessness is something I can't understand. Almost as if they want to explicitly kill people.

I assume you are referring to driverless cars. Those aren't inherently unsafe. Neither are six axis robots. As I mentioned, cobots are well suited for this sort of situation.

Just to reiterate, I am not trying to make some any sort of statement about the country. I'm just expressing my disgust in how this specific incident was responded to and the multiple failures in oversight leading up to it. Mistakes like this happen everywhere.

Re: A chess robot in Moscow has broken the finger of its human opponent

#304

Post by foverzar »

krasin wrote: post #248
foverzar wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude, you are just projecting your spite. This would be laughable if I didn't know you were serious. So it's actually just scary how how you make things up.

>Dude, you are just projecting your spite. This would be laughable if I didn't know you were serious. So it's actually just scary how how you make things up. I lived in Russia for the first 27 years of my life (but I've been out for 11 years). The claimed phenomena definitely existed and was widespread back then. I was an odd duck by being ready to openly accept my mistakes / misdoings, and I was not alone, but that…

I dunno, I see it everywhere, really. Owning you mistakes seems to be a rare and cherished virtue everywhere.

Besides, my point is that such way of reasoning and inducting from a broken finger towards a whole culture is nothing more than spiteful supremacism.

Re: A chess robot in Moscow has broken the finger of its human opponent

#305

Post by paganel »

smsm42 wrote: post #277
paganel wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was almost nothing “conservative” about Leninism. The same goes for Stalinism. Your comment actually just made me want to but “The Atheist Manual” (or something similar, can’t remember the exact title) that was published in 1950s USSR and which I found in a Romanian translation in an antique bookshop that I usually frequent.

One has to distinguish between early revolutionaries - who had many weird ideas to overhaul everything, from the calendar to the family structure to the language to the alphabet to how the art is done (in that latter they actually produced some interesting results that didn't end up in blood, tears and mass murder, too bad it happened in many other areas). They definitely weren't conservative by any measure. But, onc…

As I said, the Church had a very, very rough time throughout the existence of the USSR. There was a slight reprieve going into WW2 and during the war because Stalin wanted the most out of the USSR citizens, but otherwise religion, the conservative thing by definition, was a non-entity.

Also, women participating in the labor-force was encouraged throughout the regime’s existence, until the very end, there was no “Stepford Wives”-like tale East of the Wall. One of my aunts was an industrial crane operator in the ‘80s, I, as a kid, was finding that perfectly normal (I also grew up East of the Wall). Stay-at-home mothers, another traditional thing by definition, was seen as retrograde, “you had to have a job, hence a salary”, everything else was seen as laziness.

And I could continue with countless other examples similar to these.

Re: A chess robot in Moscow has broken the finger of its human opponent

#306

Post by rossvor »

gdy wrote: post #275
palmetieri2000 wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This videogame review from a YouTube channel called Warlockracy is actually also a really interesting perspective on at least some aspects of Russian subcultures and their prominence, I found it a surprisingly insightful social commentary wrapped up in an entertaining vid. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJ_PiXLVaJ8 (~45mins) The second video is more serious but also rather interesting (clips from it became very p…

>I found it a surprisingly insightful social commentary And how did you determine that it is insightful? The video starts with the guy confidently saying that Alcatraz is a nickname of a Moscow prison (!!!), apparently having no clue that the Russian name of the game doesn't have anything to do with prisons and the name 'Planet Alcatraz' is given to the English edition of the game. If you have no idea what you talkin…

He said no such thing, he said that the planet was named "Матросская тишина" (seaman's silence) after this prison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrosskaya_Tishina .

And you are aware that he's playing the russian version of the game, right? Translating some bits for the english audience. I'm sure he's perfectly aware what the name of the game is in russian (it's literally in the first shot of the video).

Seems like you watched 5min to just quickly find something to discredit and immediately dismiss it.

> Should I find Manhunt or Postal to be a mirror of American culture? "Interesting perspective", "insightful social commentary"?

Not a "mirror" of a culture, but if you were not already versed in American culture and watched an insightful review of those games pulling on various culture trends which make up those games, I see no reason why it couldn't be an "Interesting perspective" or "insightful social commentary".

Re: A chess robot in Moscow has broken the finger of its human opponent

#307

Post by drew-y »

foverzar wrote: post #301
drew-y wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never said anything about Russia. I am talking about the people in charge of this event specifically. > the robot must be given time to react. But the boy was in a hurry and the robot grabbed him A soft blame, but a blame nonetheless. It's an attempt to divert responsibility, no matter how you look at it. They were ultimately in charge of the situation, it's never a good sign when the leaders immediately try to ass…

> A soft blame, but a blame nonetheless. So, where are you from exactly? I am curious which culture draws an equation sign between "x triggered y" and "x is to blame for y". Diverting responsibility is making virtuous political statements, instead of analysing what went unexpected.

> We have nothing to do with the robot

Is that not an explicit diversion of responsibility? They allowed the robot to operate at their event. I might buy a mistranslation, but seems like a stretch.

I come from 8 years of experience in industrial robotics. That the boy triggered a “bug” is irrelevant. It's a distraction. The bug isn't the issue here. This kind of robot should not have been used in the first place. That is my point.

Re: A chess robot in Moscow has broken the finger of its human opponent

#308

Post by MonkeyClub »

foverzar wrote: post #269
iasay wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it’s spot on. Check the response by the chess association. They blame the boy. In Russia, it’s your fault and there will be bureaucratic treacle to wade through instantly. I’ve worked with many people from that region over the years and dated one and it’s absolutely right. It’s also why lots of people left.

Quoted post unavailable.

> the robot started misbehaving

Or rather, when “the device malfunctioned”.

This was closer to an industrial accident, rather than to Robot Revolt.

But yeah, the response is appalling.

Re: A chess robot in Moscow has broken the finger of its human opponent

#309

Post by Vespasian »

userbinator wrote: post #93
carbadtraingood wrote: post #14

The answer from the federation is unconscionable. They blamed the boy and then said they could not be held responsible. Fuck off, a kid made a reasonable kid movement. If the robot wasn't ready to be around children, it shouldn't have been deployed around children. And there should have been a big red button that immediately everything, within reach of every player.

Are you really going to go for the "think of the children" argument...? Although I do agree with you about having an e-stop.

There are tons of rules around these kind of robots in regular work environments for precisely this reason.

Usually there need to be either a physical barrier like a cage or a virtual one like a laser waterfall that detects foreign objects in the robots perimeter and emergency stops it.

These rules were disregarded here.

I used to work in a company were such machines were developed and even a very experienced engineer, working on a prototype, was once hit by it (no serious injuries and safety was improved afterwards) because they can move very fast and in unexpected ways.

These days there are better solutions available (so called cobots) which are designed to be work together in very close proximity with humans whiteout physical separation. They feature very sensitive force sensors and are severely restricted in the way the are allowed to move.

So yes "think of the humans/children" does apply here. This is a solved problems and the operators decided to disregard established procedures and went instead for "flashy and cheap" (cobots are more expensive and slow as molasses)

Re: A chess robot in Moscow has broken the finger of its human opponent

#310

Post by aaplok »

smsm42 wrote: post #90

It's Russia we're talking about. In Russia, the default mode of answering any complaint is "it's your own fault, we're not responsible, go away". It's not only on the big political scene - it's everywhere, from a village grocery store to a national federation. If you admit any mistake and any responsibility for anything, you're an idiot and a "loch" (pronounced the same as Scottish lake, but means a person to be take…

How would an accident like that be handled elsewhere, say, the US, or Western Europe? Would the federation own up to it?
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