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Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

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Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#81

Post by mrguyorama »

ceejayoz wrote: post #70
hyperman1 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've found a toilet requiring 4 or 5 flushes before things move. Otherwise they just go merilly around in circles. It has 2 buttons, and a message to push the right button and save the planet. If there exists a hell for toilets, that one belongs down there.

That's another thing Australia one-ups us on; the toilets are vigorous . None of this slow swirly watch it spin away shit; it's more like an airplane toilet in aggressiveness.

You can buy toilets and toilet "tanks" that are pressurized. They are incredible and probably can use less water.

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#82

Post by BeetleB »

sokoloff wrote: post #77
BeetleB wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not following. Peak event is, say, from 3-7pm. All my Ecobee does is set the thermostat to be a few degrees higher in that time period. So as soon as it hits 3pm, I change my thermostat to a cooler temperature, so that the final temperature is what it would have been without this program. Pretty much exactly the same usage as without enrolling into the program. Same "spikes", etc. Without the program, it would be…

I did not read "standard temperature" to mean "a thing that I manually adjust twice per day on a fixed schedule" but rather "I set it 2ºF colder in April and leave it that way until November". If you are willing to make 60 thermostat adjustments per month at 42¢ each, you earned that $25 in my book.

Energy savings events in my area are rare - only a few days of the year and very predictable (usually on a "hot" day). It's not a burden.

Prior to this program, the local utility company would merely announce the hours of peak events, and recommend minimizing energy usage as much as you can tolerate. They'd calculate how much less energy you used, and give a credit commensurate to that amount. I used to just chill at a nearby library during those hours (no kids in those days).

With this program, all they do is check that I participated often enough to exceed a threshold, and I get a fixed rebate (regardless of how much I exceed the threshold). And I effectively get that rebate by not saving any energy, and with little effort on my part.

It's silly.

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#83

Post by ceejayoz »

BeetleB wrote: post #76
ceejayoz wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fine, really. The utility's concern is predictability and burst capacity, not raw usage, so they know when and how many https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peaking_power_plant to turn on, which may take a while.

Not sure I follow. If they just want to know in advance, then they don't need to modify the temperature at all, correct?

Lowering the load helps avoid needing the more expensive short term plants from coming online.

Whether you go from 76 to 78 or from 66 to 68, you’re helping avoid the burst in demand they’d get.

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#84

Post by pdonis »

yellow_lead wrote: post #73
pdonis wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That just means the load peak is now at 6:30, when all the heaters are turned on.

It would be a smaller usage at 6:30, and not necessarily a peak, since usage would probably surpass it right after

> It would be a smaller usage at 6:30

Why? Won't all the heaters that turned on from 5:30 through 6:30 be on?

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#85

Post by tguvot »

mrguyorama wrote: post #79
tguvot wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in reality it's hard (and probably expensive) to proactively cool house with AC during summer at hot/sunny regions. I live in a house with rather good insulation (the one mandated by code) in south bay, yet all the walls getting rather warm and even if you try to precool air with AC walls with bring temperature back quickly My solution was to install whole house fan which runs through the night when temperature drops…

If you can feel that your walls are warm I don't think that's good enough insulation. The whole house fan solution is great though.

i have walls insulated according to california build code. it's not really possible to add more insulation to them, unless you rip them off and do spray in insulation. insulated attic with radiant barrier and insulated floors. i just checked with IR camera, most of surfaces in the house are now 22C-24C. After a few days of 40+C walls ill go to 25-26. some walls (south side of house) even higher. There are few little spots where insulation doesn't sit properly - it will be around 28C. The biggest offender is skylight. Temperature near top of it can get to 60C.

Edit. I think most people simply do not realize what temperature have internal and external walls in houses and how it interacts (or counteracts) AC. If you will go to read greenbuildings/passive houses forums, there are a bunch of discussions about thermal mass of the walls

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#86

Post by LazyMans »

jandrese wrote: post #46
evanreichard wrote: post #11

Ecobee has eco+ which has "Community Energy Savings" [0]. It was just way too intrusive. It seemed to be a reactive system vs proactive. Technology Connections goes into this more [1], but I believe they should be providing a system that proactively cools when there is less demand _prior_ to an expected increase in demand. Effectively using your house as a "battery". When I had it enabled, I was _always_ too hot (in…

Nest has an energy saving feature that feels like it is trying to boil the frog. We normally keep the thermostat at 78F (~25.5C), but over the course of a couple of weeks it ticked it up to 79F, then 80, then 81, and now 82F (~28C). I had to go in and manually adjust the schedule to get it back to something reasonable.

Where do you live? I'm just curious because I can't imagine living at 78F anymore.

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#87

Post by asdff »

codazoda wrote: post #80
taylodl wrote: post #71

I really don't like the strategy of super cooling in the morning. I prefer fresh air instead. I throw the windows open wide and let all the cool morning air in. By midmorning I'm usually starting to close those windows because the outside air is getting warmer. By mid afternoon I'm closing all those windows and turning on the AC and setting the temperature to 1 degree (Fahrenheit) cooler than the current room tempera…

I don't want to pay for them but I do wish I had automatic windows. It would be so nice if my windows automatically opened if the temperature outside was a few degree's cooler than my house and I was in "cool" mode. If it took the wind into consideration, even better. My house cools off so nicely when I open windows on opposite sides, but I have to remember to open and close them at the appropriate times and I have t…

This is why houses had awnings 100 years ago. You could leave the window open and not worry if it rained.

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#88

Post by Rayhem »

codazoda wrote: post #80
taylodl wrote: post #71

I really don't like the strategy of super cooling in the morning. I prefer fresh air instead. I throw the windows open wide and let all the cool morning air in. By midmorning I'm usually starting to close those windows because the outside air is getting warmer. By mid afternoon I'm closing all those windows and turning on the AC and setting the temperature to 1 degree (Fahrenheit) cooler than the current room tempera…

I don't want to pay for them but I do wish I had automatic windows. It would be so nice if my windows automatically opened if the temperature outside was a few degree's cooler than my house and I was in "cool" mode. If it took the wind into consideration, even better. My house cools off so nicely when I open windows on opposite sides, but I have to remember to open and close them at the appropriate times and I have t…

Adaptive vents, too. Why cool the whole house when I'm going to be in two rooms for the majority of the (hot) afternoon before opening the window to the bedroom in the evening?

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#89

Post by LazyMans »

taylodl wrote: post #71

I really don't like the strategy of super cooling in the morning. I prefer fresh air instead. I throw the windows open wide and let all the cool morning air in. By midmorning I'm usually starting to close those windows because the outside air is getting warmer. By mid afternoon I'm closing all those windows and turning on the AC and setting the temperature to 1 degree (Fahrenheit) cooler than the current room tempera…

I predict in certain areas, "free cooling" systems will become the standard. These are system which do just what you talk about automatically. When there is a need for cooling and exterior air is cool enough, supplement supply air with air from the outside. This way your AC system load is reduced, or if cool enough, the compressor doesn't need to run at all to remove heat from your home by replacing it with cooler air from outside.

Free cooling is already part of many commercial AC systems, usually referred to as an "economizer".

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