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Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

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Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#61

Post by BeetleB »

evanreichard wrote: post #11

Ecobee has eco+ which has "Community Energy Savings" [0]. It was just way too intrusive. It seemed to be a reactive system vs proactive. Technology Connections goes into this more [1], but I believe they should be providing a system that proactively cools when there is less demand _prior_ to an expected increase in demand. Effectively using your house as a "battery". When I had it enabled, I was _always_ too hot (in…

The silly thing is that I can simply adjust my thermostat to a lower temperature, so that the effective temperature is the same as without this program.

As an example, if I set it to 74, then when Energy Savings kicks in, it may set it to 76, which is too warm for me. So I simply set the "standard" temperature to 72, and it will set it to 74.

I use the same energy as without this program, yet I get my $25 energy savings rebate.

Silly.

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#62

Post by delecti »

spogbiper wrote: post #54
delecti wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think thermostats "smarter" than a simple bimetallic strip were relatively rare before modern internet connected thermostats.

every apartment i've rented in the last 20 years has had a thermostat with some kind of clock and program capability. never used any of it, but I don't think they are rare

Interesting, mind if I ask where you are? None of the ~6 apartments I've rented had anything beyond a temperature setpoint.

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#63

Post by cyril_st_john »

kevincox wrote: post #3

How is this different from a regular timer thermostat which turns on exactly at the set time?

The article suggests the difference is that smart thermostats have the timer feature enabled and configured the same by default, and most users do not change the defaults.

Even if most other thermostats have a timer feature, I guess they are not all turned on and set to the same time by default.

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#64

Post by tguvot »

evanreichard wrote: post #11

Ecobee has eco+ which has "Community Energy Savings" [0]. It was just way too intrusive. It seemed to be a reactive system vs proactive. Technology Connections goes into this more [1], but I believe they should be providing a system that proactively cools when there is less demand _prior_ to an expected increase in demand. Effectively using your house as a "battery". When I had it enabled, I was _always_ too hot (in…

in reality it's hard (and probably expensive) to proactively cool house with AC during summer at hot/sunny regions. I live in a house with rather good insulation (the one mandated by code) in south bay, yet all the walls getting rather warm and even if you try to precool air with AC walls with bring temperature back quickly

My solution was to install whole house fan which runs through the night when temperature drops to 16C-14C. It allows to both replace air with colder one multiple times and due to improved air-flow to cool off the walls.

After I shut windows close at morning most of the houses stays within comfort zone ( < 22C) till 6-7pm even on 40C days

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#65

Post by pjz »

Other things (besides time & current inside temp) that a thermostat could (should?) use: sunrise/sunset time, hourly weather forecast, current & projected house power usage, current & projected grid power usage

Note that almost all of those inputs are going to be identical for people in the same area, so as others mentioned building in some jitter is necessary.

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#66

Post by michaelt »

furyg3 wrote: post #37
cshokie wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Syncing the time over the internet would make them a lot more consistent. Our non-smart thermostat has trouble keeping accurate time and drifts a minute per month or so. That would spread the load out more because “6am” is a ten minute window.

This doesn't make any sense, though, as nobody turns on a heater for 10 minutes. Even if there is drift of 10-15 mins, there would still be a peak usage at 6:15 when all of the 6AM 'starters' are sucking power from the grid.

Imagine a grid supplied by a single coal-fired power plant. When demand rises the voltage drops and the frequency reduces, and the power plant has to start adding coal to the fire faster to get the voltage and frequency back to normal.

If the demand rises over the course of 10 minutes, you get a small drop in voltage and the plant ramps up gradually.

If the demand rises by the same amount over the course of 3 seconds, you'll get a much bigger voltage drop and the power plant has much less time to speed things up.

There's further complexity because real power grids are the size of nations and have many power plants. If several power plants notice the voltage dropping and increase their production, a few seconds later you might have too much power. Then they might respond by cutting their production, and a few seconds later you have too little power and so on.

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#67

Post by QuarterReptile »

furyg3 wrote: post #33

Isn't this the same if you have a 'dumb' thermostat set on a schedule, which is presumably what most people have anyways? Even if you have a 'really dumb' thermostat, presumably people are waking up at similar times and turning on their heaters... I sometimes wonder if the smartest thermostat isn't actually a 'really dumb' thermostat on a timer. As in, you want it to be warm? You have to get up and set the heater to…

If your goal is to frustrate the user and confound planning in the name of saving some energy, my understanding is that that's the core feature set of Nest once you pair it to your utility.

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#68

Post by hyperman1 »

ceejayoz wrote: post #41
lotsofpulp wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps we should have a national “if it is yellow, let it mellow, if it is brown, flush it down” ad campaign.

Australia has split flush buttons, with a half-size flush possible. Haven't seen many here in the States; might be good to require in new construction.

I've found a toilet requiring 4 or 5 flushes before things move. Otherwise they just go merilly around in circles. It has 2 buttons, and a message to push the right button and save the planet.

If there exists a hell for toilets, that one belongs down there.

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#69

Post by ceejayoz »

BeetleB wrote: post #61
evanreichard wrote: post #11

Ecobee has eco+ which has "Community Energy Savings" [0]. It was just way too intrusive. It seemed to be a reactive system vs proactive. Technology Connections goes into this more [1], but I believe they should be providing a system that proactively cools when there is less demand _prior_ to an expected increase in demand. Effectively using your house as a "battery". When I had it enabled, I was _always_ too hot (in…

The silly thing is that I can simply adjust my thermostat to a lower temperature, so that the effective temperature is the same as without this program. As an example, if I set it to 74, then when Energy Savings kicks in, it may set it to 76, which is too warm for me. So I simply set the "standard" temperature to 72, and it will set it to 74. I use the same energy as without this program, yet I get my $25 energy savi…

That's fine, really. The utility's concern is predictability and burst capacity, not raw usage, so they know when and how many https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peaking_power_plant to turn on, which may take a while.

Re: Smart thermostats inadvertently strain electric power grids

#70

Post by ceejayoz »

hyperman1 wrote: post #68
ceejayoz wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Australia has split flush buttons, with a half-size flush possible. Haven't seen many here in the States; might be good to require in new construction.

I've found a toilet requiring 4 or 5 flushes before things move. Otherwise they just go merilly around in circles. It has 2 buttons, and a message to push the right button and save the planet. If there exists a hell for toilets, that one belongs down there.

That's another thing Australia one-ups us on; the toilets are vigorous.

None of this slow swirly watch it spin away shit; it's more like an airplane toilet in aggressiveness.

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