France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe vegetarian products • Hacker News Board

Re: France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe vegetarian products

#151

Post by jzwinck » Fri, Jul 01, 2022, 5:17 AM UTC

hegelstoleit wrote: post #147

xdennis wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're conflating metaphors with obfuscation. For example, coconut milk is named so simply because it's a white liquid. It's not trying to be a replacement for milk, or trying to confuse people, it's just a metaphor. But vegan milk, sausages, etc, are all meant to be as similar to the real things as possible so as to cause confusion.

Who the fuck is buying vegan meat and being like "oh I thought this was meat"? Do we seriously need to legislate that? There's no real victim here, it's just a bunch of people who are sour or feel threatened by meat alternatives. It's ridiculous.

Just this week I bought two tubs of vegan yogurt by mistake.

They were the same shape, size and color as the milk based yogurts sitting all around them on the shelf. The only clue was the word "soya" printed at the bottom edge of the tubs in small letters. The kind of letters you'd expect to tell you something like the container size or the country the milk came from.

To be fair this vegan nogurt tastes almost the same as the real thing. But I did not appreciate being tricked into buying it.

Re: France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe vegetarian products

#152

Post by ultrarunner » Fri, Jul 01, 2022, 5:27 AM UTC

sarsway wrote: post #115

tjr225 wrote: post #60

If you’ve ever been tricked into eating vegan or plant based meat alternatives based on packaging alone, you might be a moron.

The problem is not people being tricked, but vegan food simply needs proper names. "Vegan steak" is not meat, so what it? What is vegan cheese? Could be anything. It's not very descriptive. When you see seitan or tofu, you know what you're getting.

Are there not ingredients lists on packaging at the stores you shop at? The same could be said for many foods— there are even regulations intended to prevent companies from implying that hormone or antibiotic-free dairy is preferable to the standard bioengineered stuff.

So what is vegan steak? It's a food that will be something like what someone understands steak to be, comprised of whatever is in the list of ingredients. Try it. Or don't.

Re: France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe vegetarian products

#153

Post by morsch » Fri, Jul 01, 2022, 5:42 AM UTC

kjkjadksj wrote: post #45

londons_explore wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially when you consider that the profit margins on real meat and cheese are pretty tight, while the profit margins on flavoured soy are huge.

I wonder how cheap flavored soy will be in a world where there isnt a meat industry producing cheap bonemeal and bloodmeal fertilizer

How significant is it as a source of commercial fertilizer? A rounding error, from what I can tell. An article on the situation in Germany gives it the potential to replace 5% of phosphate, if all of the bonemeal was used, and currently, barely any of it is used that way.

https://idw-online.de/de/news642547

Re: France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe vegetarian products

#154

Post by TMWNN » Fri, Jul 01, 2022, 5:45 AM UTC

tpmx wrote: post #13

It's getting ridiculous here in Sweden. Actual product names (they tend to use English, sometimes with intentional misspellings to get around regulations, I assume): "Vegan Grated Ch se" ( https://assets.icanet.se/t_product_large_2x_v1,f_auto/731024... ) "Roast Beaf - Plant-based cold cut" ( https://assets.icanet.se/t_product_large_2x_v1,f_auto/735003... ) "Parveggio - grated" ( https://assets.icanet.se/t_product_lar…

>they tend to use English, sometimes with intentional misspellings to get around regulations

As usual, Simpsons did it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovfM7dvFto0>

Re: France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe vegetarian products

#155

Post by Ekaros » Fri, Jul 01, 2022, 5:46 AM UTC

hegelstoleit wrote: post #147

xdennis wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're conflating metaphors with obfuscation. For example, coconut milk is named so simply because it's a white liquid. It's not trying to be a replacement for milk, or trying to confuse people, it's just a metaphor. But vegan milk, sausages, etc, are all meant to be as similar to the real things as possible so as to cause confusion.

Who the fuck is buying vegan meat and being like "oh I thought this was meat"? Do we seriously need to legislate that? There's no real victim here, it's just a bunch of people who are sour or feel threatened by meat alternatives. It's ridiculous.

I would love to start product line "Beyond Vegan" with tag line of "better than vegan food" with Vegan word being very big. And then have it contain lot of meat. Entirely honest and not in any way misleading marketing. And no vegan should be able to complain.

Re: France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe vegetarian products

#156

Post by Ekaros » Fri, Jul 01, 2022, 5:49 AM UTC

HKH2 wrote: post #121

saalweachter wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"better than vegan cheese" should walk the line of accuracy, deception, and marketing.

I Can Believe It's Not Vegan Cheese!

Would that be actually horrible non-vegan cheese? Finally having honesty in marketing?

Re: France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe vegetarian products

#157

Post by Ekaros » Fri, Jul 01, 2022, 5:51 AM UTC

xdennis wrote: post #28

markstos wrote: post #10

The US meat and dairy industry have asked for similar bans as well. The problem is, consumers aren't actually confused. Different names will used if need be and consumers will continue the trend of reducing their meat consumption for environmental, health, or ethical reasons.

> The problem is, consumers aren't actually confused. Nonsense! I was tricked. They: * make the products look like real sausages and cheese * sell them in the same packages * label them in large letters as the real thing * write "vegan" in small letters * put them next to the real things It's all done to trick people.

I think vegan products deserve some kind of tobacco like warning label. Let's say 60% standardised "NOT MEAT COULD HARM YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN".

Re: France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe vegetarian products

#158

Post by morsch » Fri, Jul 01, 2022, 5:52 AM UTC

0110101001 wrote: post #27

wolfgang42 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since this is a law in France, trying to apply English definitions is probably unhelpful. Here’s my translation of the definition[1] from Dictionnaire de l'Académie française , the official French dictionary: > SAUCISSE (n) Intestine filled with chopped meats, most commonly pork, seasoned in various ways, which is often eaten hot. This does seem to fairly definitely exclude vegetarian options. [1] https://www.diction…

In the US, at least, most commercial sausages are made with artificial casings, rather than gut casings. I'd be surprised if that wasn't also the case in France as it makes industrial-scale production a lot easier without much difference in end product. Despite their efforts, dictionary definitions aren't always in sync with common usage, and it seems obvious that the latter is what we should regulate on.

In Germany, the market share of both kinds of casings is about the same, according to a large retailer. I wouldn't be surprised if France veers more towards the traditional side.

https://www.edeka.de/ernaehrung/expertenwissen/1000-fragen-1...

Re: France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe vegetarian products

#159

Post by Ekaros » Fri, Jul 01, 2022, 5:56 AM UTC

kjkjadksj wrote: post #54

boomboomsubban wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you describe meat?

Would you describe vegetarian food as “food from dead plants” or the harvested product, like soy/tofu? Meat is the name of the product.

To me many of these new products look like "industrially ultaprocessed and unproven food".

Re: France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe vegetarian products

#160

Post by morsch » Fri, Jul 01, 2022, 6:06 AM UTC

inportb wrote: post #133

autarch wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been vegan for c. 27 years and I like these products. I grew up eating meat and dairy, and I still like the flavor and mouth feel, but I hate the cruelty.

Quoted post unavailable.

You hate the cruelty of farming animals for food, but you support the cruelty of farming vegetables for food

Probably because they think one is worse than the other. I think flipping somebody off and hitting them in the face is both not very nice, but I think one of them is much more impolite. Moral judgements come in degrees. Is this novel information for you?

That said, maybe they're also trying to minimise the impact of the plant based foods they eat? I'm sure you don't, why go halfsies and all, so that thought probably never crossed your mind.

You believe that eating animals is morally wrong, but you want to pretend that you're eating animals, at the expense of non-animals?

No, they like the taste. They're not pretending to eat meat. People who drink diet coke don't pretend to drink non-diet coke. They're drinking another coke flavored beverage.