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France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe vegetarian products

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Re: France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe vegetarian products

#31

Post by walrus01 »

tpmx wrote: post #13

It's getting ridiculous here in Sweden. Actual product names (they tend to use English, sometimes with intentional misspellings to get around regulations, I assume): "Vegan Grated Ch se" ( https://assets.icanet.se/t_product_large_2x_v1,f_auto/731024... ) "Roast Beaf - Plant-based cold cut" ( https://assets.icanet.se/t_product_large_2x_v1,f_auto/735003... ) "Parveggio - grated" ( https://assets.icanet.se/t_product_lar…

Can I get some meet to go with my beaf? Maybe a snausage? Or perhaps a chik'n nugget

Re: France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe vegetarian products

#32

Post by londons_explore »

xdennis wrote: post #28
markstos wrote: post #10

The US meat and dairy industry have asked for similar bans as well. The problem is, consumers aren't actually confused. Different names will used if need be and consumers will continue the trend of reducing their meat consumption for environmental, health, or ethical reasons.

> The problem is, consumers aren't actually confused. Nonsense! I was tricked. They: * make the products look like real sausages and cheese * sell them in the same packages * label them in large letters as the real thing * write "vegan" in small letters * put them next to the real things It's all done to trick people.

Especially when you consider that the profit margins on real meat and cheese are pretty tight, while the profit margins on flavoured soy are huge.

Re: France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe vegetarian products

#33

Post by xdennis »

ggm wrote: post #23

This debate won't end in a hurry. We've been arguing about what beer is since the German beer laws and before. British Sausages cause hilarity in Europe. The idea that definitionally we can state a-priori what is or is not the current meaning of a term when language itself is plastic is kind of broken because the distinction between Cows, Cattle, Beef, Veal, Bison, Oxen, Bullock and Bull, Buffalo and Bison and Cow, G…

You're conflating metaphors with obfuscation.

For example, coconut milk is named so simply because it's a white liquid. It's not trying to be a replacement for milk, or trying to confuse people, it's just a metaphor.

But vegan milk, sausages, etc, are all meant to be as similar to the real things as possible so as to cause confusion.

Re: France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe vegetarian products

#34

Post by Nursie »

ggm wrote: post #23

This debate won't end in a hurry. We've been arguing about what beer is since the German beer laws and before. British Sausages cause hilarity in Europe. The idea that definitionally we can state a-priori what is or is not the current meaning of a term when language itself is plastic is kind of broken because the distinction between Cows, Cattle, Beef, Veal, Bison, Oxen, Bullock and Bull, Buffalo and Bison and Cow, G…

> British Sausages cause hilarity in Europe.

Honestly I don't really see why. Yeah the really cheap ones have a lower meat content than other countries tend to use, but german bratwurst are often around 85%(ish) meat, and it's very easy to find British sausages which have that much or higher meat content.

I think like many British food stereotypes, it's likely several decades past being factual, and probably has its roots in the post-war and post-rationing eras.

Re: France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe vegetarian products

#35

Post by Nursie »

xdennis wrote: post #33
ggm wrote: post #23

This debate won't end in a hurry. We've been arguing about what beer is since the German beer laws and before. British Sausages cause hilarity in Europe. The idea that definitionally we can state a-priori what is or is not the current meaning of a term when language itself is plastic is kind of broken because the distinction between Cows, Cattle, Beef, Veal, Bison, Oxen, Bullock and Bull, Buffalo and Bison and Cow, G…

You're conflating metaphors with obfuscation. For example, coconut milk is named so simply because it's a white liquid. It's not trying to be a replacement for milk, or trying to confuse people, it's just a metaphor. But vegan milk, sausages, etc, are all meant to be as similar to the real things as possible so as to cause confusion.

Nobody's trying to confuse anyone though, they're trying to provide alternatives.

"Sausage" is such a generic term, covering so very many things, that it's bizarre to try and restrict it.

(edit: almost forgot we are talking about France, a country which tries to control its language by law. Carry on then!)

Re: France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe vegetarian products

#36

Post by xdennis »

jefftk wrote: post #29
xdennis wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be completely fair, assuming the reverse is true as well. That is, being able to sell real cheese as "vegan cheese" to trick vegans into eating it. I was tricked into buying vegan sausages. They don't deserve protection either.

The ruling was that they could call it things like "vegan cheese", not an unqualified "cheese".

So then we should be able to use the term "real vegan cheese", but not an unqualified "vegan cheese".

Re: France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe vegetarian products

#37

Post by Nursie »

coffeefirst wrote: post #11
markstos wrote: post #10

The US meat and dairy industry have asked for similar bans as well. The problem is, consumers aren't actually confused. Different names will used if need be and consumers will continue the trend of reducing their meat consumption for environmental, health, or ethical reasons.

Honestly I think giving them new names would increase popularity. It lets the food stand on its own without the expectation of being an imitation. Falafel, for example, is amazing and didn't need to be called "Chickpea Burgers" for people to like it.

Falafel, to me, is a very specific thing, and a chickpea burger may or may not resemble that thing.

Re: France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe vegetarian products

#38

Post by galago »

xdennis wrote: post #28
markstos wrote: post #10

The US meat and dairy industry have asked for similar bans as well. The problem is, consumers aren't actually confused. Different names will used if need be and consumers will continue the trend of reducing their meat consumption for environmental, health, or ethical reasons.

> The problem is, consumers aren't actually confused. Nonsense! I was tricked. They: * make the products look like real sausages and cheese * sell them in the same packages * label them in large letters as the real thing * write "vegan" in small letters * put them next to the real things It's all done to trick people.

At my local grocery store in Massachusetts, some fake meat products are now displayed in the meat section. The thing is though, they (Beyond, etc.) are sometimes more expensive than meat! In some contexts its considered the premium product, and its also there so people having a barbecue or something can provide an option for non-meat eaters. I don't believe at all that they're trying to trick anyone--its more than that. They're trying to position their products as a standard choice, not something from the "health food section."

Re: France bans veggie ′steaks,′ ′sausages′ to describe vegetarian products

#39

Post by kjkjadksj »

markstos wrote: post #10

The US meat and dairy industry have asked for similar bans as well. The problem is, consumers aren't actually confused. Different names will used if need be and consumers will continue the trend of reducing their meat consumption for environmental, health, or ethical reasons.

I’ve also been confused. I went to what I thought was a health food restaurant and ordered iirc a chicken sandwich. Received gardein which if you’ve had it is like a 1990s tier veggie burger aka not good. The cheese on it was also fake american cheese which itself was never cheese to begin with, but they still called it cheese despite it being nothing like cheese in taste or texture and only vaguely in color. At least let me know what I’m getting into instead of playing cute and having this game with the menu.
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