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Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists

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Re: Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists

#71

Post by robotresearcher »

dylangs1030 wrote: post #56
anamax wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cocaine, ecstasy, heroin, etc. are much more profitable, and legalizing these would be socially irresponsible, if fiscally lucrative. Are you claiming that the benefits that we actually get from the current prohibitions are greater than the costs of those prohibitions? If so, that's not obviously true. After all, I can get all of those things without too much effort, so what is huge benefit of making them illegal?…

It's not obviously false either - it's at least arguably true. When I said fiscally lucrative, I was admitting there may be a certain profit to legalizing these substances. However, it's socially irresponsible. I don't think a society will function as well with a government making clearly adverse narcotics freely available because people want them.

"clearly adverse narcotics"

How are they clearly adverse? Why was it not clear before the middle of the 20th century? Why is it not clear in other countries? Why was alcohol "clearly adverse" in the early 20th century in the US? What's the evidence that making drugs illegal has net benefits to society?

It is very, very expensive and unhealthy to lock up so many young people for drug offenses. Illegal drugs do a lot of harm, but so do alcohol, cigarettes and obesity. If narcotics were legal, we would sadly continue to lose good people to them. But the evidence from Portugal* suggests this would be not more than we already do. And we would lose far fewer people to prison, drug-related violence and the accidents and diseases due to the conditions associated with illegal drugs.

* http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.ht...

(edit: spelling and added link to article about Portugal's policy experiment)

Re: Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists

#72

Post by gsmaverick »

dylangs1030 wrote: post #57
mdda wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Profit margins should be expected to be proportionate to illegality : Since the threat of punishment forces vibrant competition out of the market. Similarly, one can track the effectiveness of the war on drugs by looking at the street prices of drugs over time. If the war was effective, prices would be rising. Unfortunately, basic economic theory shows that the war on drugs is a complete failure.

Right. And like I said, it might be a fiscal improvement to legalize drugs. You could earn money from it. But, and i mean this in all sincerity, do you want to live in a society where they're freely accessible?

Why should they be illegal? Why should any government regulate what you can and cannot put in your body?

For the record, yes I would rather live in a society where drugs were freely accessible.

Re: Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists

#73

Post by InclinedPlane »

guelo wrote: post #60
rdl wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There aren't criminal organizations in the USA which can credibly threaten state governments, let aloe the Feds. This is different in other countries. Hence, law enforcement to solve crime in the USA; targeted killings in Mexico.

There used to be, the mob was practically running several cities and literally owned Las Vegas. It took many decades to reduce the threat.

That was because prohibition funneled gobs and gobs of money into the hands of criminals.

See also: the current Mexican civil war.

Re: Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists

#74

Post by r0s »

dylangs1030 wrote: post #36
tjmc wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or end the futile prohibition on drugs and tax them instead. Worked for alcohol.

That is an over-simplified solution to a complicated problem. Organized crime would change, not cease to exist. Countries where prostitution is legal still see organized abuses in the industry, like brothel owners not following regulations, etc. Moreover, marijuana has the highest likelihood of being legalized of any drug (still not likely) and yet, it is the lowest profit margin for organized crime. Cocaine, ecstasy…

All of those drugs are more dangerous when they are unregulated. Compare to the personal liberties/responsibilities of firearms please.

Re: Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists

#75

Post by dhughes »

nikatwork wrote: post #41
handelaar wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For values of 'worked for alcohol' that include 'moved world's largest criminal organisation into non-alcohol-related activity without impacting its organisational capacity one jot'.

People drink and take drugs because they enjoy it. What illegal activity are you proposing people will seek if drugs are medicinalized/legalized? Saying "oh they'll just move on" is a bit hand-wavey.

More like what illegal activity will criminals try if drugs are made legal.

There are bars everywhere, cigarettes are everywhere so other than a little bootlegging of alcohol and cigs there isn't much profit in those things.

Whatever people want and whatever makes criminals money is what they will try.

Re: Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists

#76

Post by r0s »

dylangs1030 wrote: post #38
handelaar wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For values of 'worked for alcohol' that include 'moved world's largest criminal organisation into non-alcohol-related activity without impacting its organisational capacity one jot'.

Exactly. Crime would adjust itself, or find a new market. Compromising by legalizing something which has a purpose in being illegal is detrimental to solving the problem.

Bullshit. As if criminals simply avoid other vice because it's less profitable, totally false. Dangerously false.

There are not open markets just floating around waiting for criminals to suddenly discover them.

Re: Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists

#77

Post by r0s »

sliverstorm wrote: post #58
Avshalom wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gun running, human trafficking, political corruption, extortion, kidnapping, straight up stealing shit, fencing, counterfeiting. You know all those crimes that aren't substance based. And depending on the terms of legalization, I'm sure drugs would always be a small part, whether that be black market to avoid taxes or prescription drugs.

We should probably legalize all those too. They'll go away.

This is hyperbolic, unreasonable and valueless.

Re: Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists

#79

Post by sliverstorm »

robotresearcher wrote: post #66
Avshalom wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gun running, human trafficking, political corruption, extortion, kidnapping, straight up stealing shit, fencing, counterfeiting. You know all those crimes that aren't substance based. And depending on the terms of legalization, I'm sure drugs would always be a small part, whether that be black market to avoid taxes or prescription drugs.

None of these things is as profitable as drugs. Tens of dollars per gram, of stuff that grows in the forest and requires but a little processing. There's nothing so profitable to move on to.

Are you suggesting that the lower profits mean a crime ring can't be organized around them? Because history would disagree with you.

Re: Anonymous Cancels Operation Cartel as Los Zetas Track Hacktivists

#80

Post by gsmaverick »

dylangs1030 wrote: post #61
bmac27 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Countries where prostitution is legal still see organized abuses in the industry, like brothel owners not following regulations, etc." There are organized abuses in every industry, legal or not. We're not scrapping the insurance market because of the schemes that go on between doctors, lawyers & individuals looking to make a buck through phoney claims.

That is true, and while I used prostitution as an example, I personally don't see why it should be illegal. However heroin addiction is not the same as corporations and governments lobbying in cahoots. Drugs aren't really viable for an effective lifestyle - at least, not the ones organized crime profits the most on. Even prescription drugs like Vicodin were nearly pulled off the market because of how dangerous they a…

There are many dangerous things out there that are legal and for good reason; if you choose to ingest it you have that choice and in the end you are responsible for that. Are you also for prohibition on smoking because that gets in the way of a "viable effective lifestyle"?
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