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Stop using app icons for political activism

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Re: Stop using app icons for political activism

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The OP may well be opposed to the rainbow flag or not. The fact that they are not allowed to make a facially neutral “no politics on my home screen” statement without HN speculating about some political leaning seems to me to be a pretty clear example of how some progressive movements are encroaching on what used to be neutral space.

Quoted post unavailable.

> “No politics” is itself a political statement.

Yes, but it's often the one that the silent majority supports. And I think in many cases, it is in fact an objectively better and wiser strategy.

Re: Stop using app icons for political activism

#182

The author didn’t bother to state which political statements they were upset about; neither did they bother to say something like “all of them,” which would have been trivial. So we are left to guess which political activism they find annoying. Given the timing, there’s a very good chance that it’s related to Pride month here in the US. It seems even more probable when you consider the context: very few companies cha…

>I would invite everyone to remember this the next time someone wants a “politics-free” workspace. Specifically, remember that a vague assertion that LGBTQ people exist (a rainbow, on a logo), is what some folks consider “political.” There are many things that "just exist", but one subset of them receives massive media attention, mandatory acknowledgments, and is shielded from a lot of criticism, while another subset…

I dunno... as a straight hetero man, Pride has had pretty much zero impact on me. A bunch of gay people walk by in costumes and flags, and businesses add rainbows to everything. What's the big deal?

But for people who are LGBTQ, it is an expression not just of pride but also sheer survival and resilience, something that wasn't guaranteed even in recent history (and still isn't, in many places).

I think it's easier to think of something as "political" when it's different from one's own norms, because the status quo is often invisible. And most of these minority groups don't seek to convert the status quo, only to find space for them to be themselves. There's a difference between evangelism and asking for tolerance, between asking for respect and reversing the oppression.

> There are many things that "just exist", but one subset of them receives massive media attention, mandatory acknowledgments, and is shielded from a lot of criticism, while another subset is constantly being ridiculed, mocked and villified.

Isn't that just how culture works? It's not some baked-in static thing that we figure out once and then never have to discuss again.

As to why certain topics get more positive coverage than others, well, probably it's just cultural norms trying to change, but seeing friction when it meets the status quo. Change is hard on a lot of people, institutions, cultures, and religions -- and that conflict is therefore newsworthy (and inflammatory and gets all the hits on social media, sigh).

The things that are changing get more coverage because they are actually newsworthy -- they are novel. "How to raise your kids" is a very important topic, but it's not exactly newsworthy because it's not new. It's been around for hundreds of thousands of years. You're still welcome to raise your family in a heterosexual nuclear way if you'd like, but it's relatively new for LGBTQ couples to be able to openly adopt (or otherwise have children), or even to work and marry and walk around in the open. Likewise, "How to be a housewife" is also a very important topic (and a difficult job!). And frankly it would be great if we celebrated both kids and moms more, and gave kids enough schooling and shelter and care and love to be able to grow and thrive as kids, and paid the working class enough such that single-earner households become viable again. For what it's worth, all those same concerns apply to gay parents raising kids too, but it would be considered "ideological" or "political" to discuss that in some circles.

> And giving one subset of people different rights from another one (even if it's non-monetary tokenism) makes a workplace toxic and increases tension.

So... like giving health benefits to one's heterosexual spouse, before gay marriage was legal?

Or... having people take free, undocumented PTO for a personal errand, but only if they have kids to pick up?

Or... paying and promoting white hetero men more?

Or... having reproductive health covered by your health plan?

Or... having Christmas as a mandatory paid holiday and refusing to cover other religious days?

There is so much in the workplace that is already discriminatory to many people. The difference is that the status quo has the power to just invisibly normalize these things and so we don't really have to think about it day to day, but the underdogs have to use "political" messaging or advocacy just to try to reach parity with the status quo majority.

Is something only toxic and tension-causing if it's different from the status quo? What if the status quo IS the problem for some? The "non-monetary tokenism" usually applies to some historically oppressed group for whom "leave politics out of _______" has resulted in actual harm, monetary or worse, upon their lives.

> We don't argue which subcategory deserves a month of acknowledgement, and who can get by with half-a-Friday

That is only the case when your workplace is either homogenous enough (which works well), or else invisibly oppressive (which doesn't work well), or else is diverse but also well paid enough that people choose to look the other way (which also works well, but is rare). In practice the second is the most common, I think, where you don't really talk about it but there's this permanent underclass who's just otherized and neglected. The cultural movements we're seeing now are because many of them have had enough and feel the need to speak up rather than to continue being marginalized. And frankly that goes both ways: all across the ideological spectrum, people are culturally dissatisfied with the status quo, each other, their employer, their government, etc. Our companies are ultimately just reflections of the individuals who own and staff them, and they don't exist in some cultureless vacuum...

If your workplace really hasn't had any discussions about any of this stuff, um... maybe it should? It's an inevitability that it's going to affect the employees/customers/stakeholders in one way or another. And if you don't address it, it's just going to blow up on its own when the pressure builds enough. I think cultural schisms are like earthquakes: you can have many small ones that are easy to address as they come up, or you can let the pressure build and build and build until it explodes catastrophically.

> We instead focus on actual work. Like have a month of refactoring, or a month of unit tests.

People are part of the work too. Whether it's taking a new hire out to lunch, or celebrating someone's baby shower, or not offending someone with a gift of the wrong religion, or letting a dad pick up his kids from school, or treating someone's same-sex partner with the same respect you would anyone else at a +1 event. How could you expect to work well with people if you can't even show them basic human dignity and respect? "Shut up and go refactor that test" is pretty awful, no matter their sexual orientation or political ideology. IMO we're people first and employees second, and if your workplace can't even acknowledge that basic tenet of the relationship... eh... :shrug:

Re: Stop using app icons for political activism

#183
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not mentioning a cause is not the same thing as being agnostic.

The post itself was, though, as the gp post wrote.

To me, it actually sounds like a dog-whistle. As I said in my original comment, making it an actually agnostic argument would have been trivial.

Re: Stop using app icons for political activism

#184

The author didn’t bother to state which political statements they were upset about; neither did they bother to say something like “all of them,” which would have been trivial. So we are left to guess which political activism they find annoying. Given the timing, there’s a very good chance that it’s related to Pride month here in the US. It seems even more probable when you consider the context: very few companies cha…

Why are you assuming it's about a specific issue? The author made it pretty clear it's about the principle and not a specific issue. From the author: "I might actually agree with your political cause, but you crossed a line."

Honestly? I’ve lived long enough and heard this rhetoric so many, many times before.

It would have been utterly trivial to make clear that it wasn’t about a specific issue. Instead, it was only implied.

Re: Stop using app icons for political activism

#185
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The most charitable interpretation is that it's a protest against heteronormativity Protest ? Come on. The most charitable interpretation is that the person making such a statement merely think non hetero people deserve the same rights as anyone else. Which is quite different from taking a position against something.

Not really, from Wikipedia [1]: > Heteronormativity is the concept that heterosexuality is the preferred or normal mode of sexual orientation. It assumes the gender binary (i.e., that there are only two distinct, opposite genders) and that sexual and marital relations are most fitting between people of opposite sex. The idea of promoting a "gender binary" and treating the exceptions as abnormalities is quite diagonal…

You’ve equated the idea that “heterosexuality is normal” with “non-heterosexuality is abnormal.” That is only true in the strictest of semantic senses.

There is a very negative connotation to “abnormal,” is that what you meant to imply?

Re: Stop using app icons for political activism

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The world broadcasts heterosexuality on every corner. What’s the difference? There isn’t one. There is too much blatant heterosexuality in our culture. > The media certainly has not decided as much. This is still what we, as a society, glorify. What would you say shows that the media has decided these things are no longer important? That we don’t have a month celebrating abstinence and sexual propriety?

> That we don’t have a month celebrating abstinence and sexual propriety? My statement was referring to the immediate parent, which bemoaned the lack of “Fathers appreciation month” and “housewives appreciation.” How does the lack of an “abstinence celebration month” support the idea I was responding to - the idea that the media has decided that “fathers” and “housewives” are unimportant? > There is too much blatant…

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Re: Stop using app icons for political activism

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> mandatory acknowledgments Who mandates that? > shielded from a lot of criticism By whom? From where I stand, a lot of folks have stated calling me and mine “groomers,” which is pretty critical in my book. They seem free enough to criticize to me? > while another subset is constantly being ridiculed, mocked and villified Each side mocks the other; so it seems to be a moot point to me. > Pride month would be fair if…

>By whom? From where I stand, a lot of folks have stated calling me and mine “groomers,” which is pretty critical in my book. That's a very specific thing. Children of certain ages would go great lengths to feel different from the previous generation, "cool", "hip". Decades of various subcultures from Punks to Emos is pretty solid evidence. Grooming is trying to use the need to feel different in order to convince the…

> No mainstream media outlet ever covers this angle - it's a complete taboo

It isn’t a taboo; it’s fallacious. That’s the reason mainstream media doesn’t cover it: there is no epidemic of LGBT people “grooming” children. It’s a made-up thing designed to whip up a frenzy of hatred towards LGBTQ people and justify rolling back civil rights.

I appreciate your lengthy discussion of what grooming is, and how you think it’s a real problem. However, in context it sounds like you are saying that my example of criticism isn’t legitimate because LGBTQ people are “groomers.” That isn’t what you meant, is it?

> Respectfully disagree.

Everything you say after this point is interesting, but utterly unrelated to what I said. I said it’s rhetorical nonsense to elevate “non-monetary tokenism” to a “right,” and I don’t see where you’ve engaged with that idea.

Re: Stop using app icons for political activism

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They’ve moved on from denial, nowadays they say far more hateful things. [1] All I was getting at is not having a rainbow or supporting a company who changes their logo or whatever doesn't mean somebody is denying the existence of LGBT. >No, but it’s not for the kind of reasons you’re trying to get at with this kind of questioning. Fundamentally, I don’t much care about people changing their app icons for causes I s…

About the whole “existence” bit - I think you’re unintentionally arguing a straw man? I never asserted that not having a rainbow logo meant that you must clearly hate the gays. I don’t really disagree on that point, I just didn’t make that argument in the first place. :) > Unless the OP states otherwise you don't know either. I don't like to make assumptions when the poster goes out of their way to not bring up the t…

>About the whole “existence” bit - I think you’re unintentionally arguing a straw man? I never asserted that not having a rainbow logo meant that you must clearly hate the gays.

Then I misunderstood what you were saying. I guess that goes to show the risk we take when we try to read more into the text than what it says.

>For certain? Not from the text, no. I’ve been clear this whole time that I feel it is likely what motivated it

The OP either posted well after an app changed their icon or an app took 20 days to change their icon (or something in between).

It could be related to pride month, but I don't know that you can draw that conclusion.

Juneteenth seems more likely and makes his argument more poignant since the icon is going to change back in a day.

Regardleas, changing an icon for a day or a month is ridiculous and annoying.

>That said, I found a few transphobic comments in the authors HN history with no real effort, so I feel pretty comfortable with the assumption.

Do you have examples? Also, I don't consider dead naming or using pronouns the trans person used to use but not longer to be transphobic, so if you have posts other than that I would like to see them.

>I would encourage you to learn to recognize this kind of dog-whistle. The explicit omission of what political group motivated a rant centered on politics is a common rhetorical technique.

You know what else is a rhetorical technique, calling people transphobic based on nothing more than conjecture.

We are at a point where everything and nothing can be considered a dog whistle.

Re: Stop using app icons for political activism

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you assuming it's about a specific issue? The author made it pretty clear it's about the principle and not a specific issue. From the author: "I might actually agree with your political cause, but you crossed a line."

Honestly? I’ve lived long enough and heard this rhetoric so many, many times before. It would have been utterly trivial to make clear that it wasn’t about a specific issue. Instead, it was only implied.

“I might actually agree with your political cause, but you crossed a line.”

seems pretty clear it’s not a specific issue

Re: Stop using app icons for political activism

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could also be Ukraine. There have been a lot of blue and yellow logos lately.

This is definitely true. I considered that it could be Ukraine, but ultimately it seemed less likely. Most of the Ukraine-related logo changes I personally saw were done earlier on in the war, and most of what I see right now is Pride-related. I probably could have mentioned this possibility in the comment, as well. That said, the author didn’t tell us; so we’re left to guess.

why not both? In fact, the post implies it’s all.
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