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Scotland starts renewed case for independence

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Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#581

Post by KSteffensen »

espadrine wrote: post #82
chillydawg wrote: post #42

One quite important issue is the border. English and Scottish people will almost certainly never tolerate any kind of friction at that border. We've been moving across it seamlessly for centuries, families are mixed, businesses straddle the border, etc. If the Northern Ireland debacle has shown us anything, it's if Scotland were to leave and then join the EU that border would become an absolute political nightmare. T…

Another way to look at the Northern Ireland precedent, is that a compromise was found. People could argue that the same text can be reused.

A compromise that Johnson is now unilaterally reneging on. Apparently somebody figured out that it is actually the same compromise that was rejected when presented by Teresa May. No workable solution has been found for Northern Ireland.

At least England/Scotland border doesn't have the bagage of the troubles, but it'll still be a mess.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#582

Post by dahfizz »

jleyank wrote: post #551
oblio wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> communism isn’t associated with the far left In what world? :-))

The same world where fascism isn’t associated with the far right. Where jargon is fluid and arbitrary. Was responding to previous post trying to separate fascism/right wing.

> The same world where fascism isn’t associated with the far right.

I made no such argument. Fasicm isn't associated with the actual, modern day right wing of politics.

This is why "far right" is such a slippery and nefarious term. It allows you to conflate right wing politics and facsism.

If you think the Tories are fascist, then make that argument. Don't hide behind this newspeak.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#583

Post by physicsguy »

randomsearch wrote: post #434
physicsguy wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scotland likely won't be part of the EU on an exit from the UK. If a country wanted to move to the EU, why move to a country that's just undergone an economic shock, and with new political divisions forming as competing visions of the future and huge uncertainty, rather than move to Ireland which is relatively stable politically and also has English as the working language, and a much larger existing financial sector…

"Scotland won't be part of the EU" Oh yes, and voting for Remain is the only way to stay in the EU. I think that argument has long since sailed. The EU will undoubtedly fasttrack Scotland straight back into the EU and single market before independence arrives. As a major English-speaking country in the EU, with ports at the periphery of Europe, strong exports, and a finance capital, Scotland will be in a great positi…

That's not what I said though, is it? Not much point attacking a straw man argument. If Scotland voted to leave the UK, it'd almost certainly need to go through the normal accession process. That's unlikely to happen until Scotland had formally left. Even if the EU agreed to start negotiating immediately after the vote, it's still questionable whether it'd be complete by the time that it left the UK.

I don't disagree that it has the things you've listed. The question is - why would a company choose Scotland over Ireland - or even any of the Nordics - when it'll be have political risk for years after independence. Pretty much the only thing unifying the SNP at the moment is independence - post-independence you'd likely see a split into multiple parties.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#584

Post by mvc »

Emma_Goldman wrote: post #542
mvc wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the secular trend is clearly downwards Some might see this as an argument for ditching the folks who've overseen this downward trend.

Reserves have fallen severalfold since the basin was opened in the 1970s. Oil and gas cannot be produced on the same scale for the same returns as in the past. Most of the best wells have dried up. The UK and Scottish governments are both committed to net zero, which means the managed decline of the North sea oil and gas industry. Sturgeon has publicly taken a harder position on this than Johnson since COP26. If Scot…

Sorry.

I misread the "downward trend" part as pertaining to the economics of the country as a whole, not the oil and gas sector as you clearly stated.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#585

Post by smcl »

enriquto wrote: post #463
afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

> As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. As a Catalan that wants his country to be independent: I'd cry tears of joy if our western neighbors were half as nice as you the English are. I was not pro-indy before I got to know first-hand the callousness of even moderate spaniard unionists.

Just a heads up - this person is delivering all the "No" campaign's talking points in this thread so it's very unlikely they actually voted "Yes" in 2014.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#586

Post by physicsguy »

Erikun wrote: post #105
dataengineer56 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scotland wouldn't meet the criteria to join the EU - it's far too poor and small by itself. Exiting the UK would just isolate them more.

That isnt correct, perhaps "poor" might be a problem depending on what dept Scotland would have after independence, but definetly not small. Joining criteria are ( https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/enlargement-p... ): * stable institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities; * a functioning market economy and the capacity to cope with compet…

> stable institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities;

How could it be judged that institutions are stable immediately after independence? There'd be a ton of new ones that would need to be set up.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#587

Post by mvc »

iso1631 wrote: post #555
mvc wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"past performance is no guarantee of future results"

Betting an economy on a high price of oil seems risky, especially when you're a minor player

I'm more worried about what happens when the oil runs out.

Apparently it's the only thing of any value in Scotland and in 30 years, we're supposed to be net-zero.

What happens when Scotland's geographical resources cease to be of any use to wealthy English people?

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#588

Post by maratc »

jenscow wrote: post #425
maratc wrote: post #360

> But the point is this: in an independent Scotland, crucial decision-making power will rest with the people who live here – not with Westminster governments that do not command the support of people in Scotland, and which pursue policies, for example, Brexit, that are deeply damaging to Scotland's interests. So, the Scots don't want that the people who make the decisions would be in Westminster — they want the peopl…

There are at least 2 factors you miss: - The EU would have less of an influence than Westminster does. - The people of Scotland believe their desires are more aligned with those of other countries, than with England.

If the Scots want to leave a declining Empire A and to join a rising Empire B, I don't have issue with that. What I have issue with is calling that "independence", because that's not what that word usually means.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#589

Post by easytiger »

mschuster91 wrote: post #189
easytiger wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will you feel the same way when the EU seeks the end of veto powers (as is currently happening)? https://timesofmalta.com/articles/view/european-parliament-a...

Yes, the veto powers are the one thing that needs to go real quick if the EU wants a chance at standing on its own legs on the geopolitical table. Right now, we have governments corrupted by Chinese influence (e.g. by ports and other infrastructure being bought up in Greece and Italy), by Russian influence (just look at Hungary's Orban blocking EU sanctions) or by autocratic/fundamentalist politicians (Hungary, Polan…

You don't think the veto powers ending will precipitate the end of the EU as we know it?

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#590

Post by mvc »

brigandish wrote: post #466
mvc wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, you must forgive me for thinking that principles and promises are worth sticking to. I should be as cynical as politicians and simply go by what is convenient, right? So principled that you are happy to stick with a leader who when asked about parties that went on in his house, confidently stated that no parties had taken place.

I don't support Boris Johnson, I'm not a Tory, I don't care about the stupid parties, cake and beer by anyone and I'd like to know why you're claiming the opposite? Please, I'd like to know why you felt the need to write a completely false comment.

He is the current PM of the UK.

The Tory party is dominant in the UK. Now and for the forseeable future. And even in the unforseeable future, more years than not.

Independence is the only escape.

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