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Scotland starts renewed case for independence

gov.scot

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Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#41

Post by ggm »

carnitine wrote: post #18
madeofpalk wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around Not judging, I'm honestly curious why you didn't want them to be independent and thought that, "as a Brit" it was your position to have an opinion on Scotland's independence other than "whatever they want"? Me, Australian living in England.

Because fracturing your country and making it poorer and smaller probably isn’t desirable?

A non Yugoslavian, I regret the breakup of Yugoslavia immensely but I do wonder if any of the former constituent states would agree with you regarding Scotland or me regarding Yugoslavia?

Note that it's an open question if the Scots economy would remain worse per capita, not disagreeing there is/was pain ahead in transition.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#42

Post by chillydawg »

One quite important issue is the border. English and Scottish people will almost certainly never tolerate any kind of friction at that border. We've been moving across it seamlessly for centuries, families are mixed, businesses straddle the border, etc. If the Northern Ireland debacle has shown us anything, it's if Scotland were to leave and then join the EU that border would become an absolute political nightmare. The EU has an absolutist position on border integrity, but locals have an absolutist position of border porosity. I don't think there's a compromise that both sides could tolerate.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#44

Post by inglor_cz »

I still can't really see the case for Scottish independence except nationalism.

Scotland has been part of the UK for more than 300 years. It is so tightly integrated into its society and market that a hard border would be rather painful.

We have an example of the successor states of Austria-Hungary once the empire collapsed at the end of WWI. The economic situation of businesses that suddenly faced high tariffs accessing their traditional markets was dire and likely paved way for the Great Depression in Central and Eastern Europe being even worse than it had to be.

Scottish independence seems to me a solution in search of a problem.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#45

Post by xxs »

tick_tock_tick wrote: post #8

It's one thing to push for independence itself to gain full sovereignty, though with the implication they'd join the EU right away they wouldn't have it for long, but don't pretend like it's somehow going to make Scotland "better".

They'd have a lot higher degree of freedom in the EU, compared the to the UK where their votes barely count for anything as witnessed by the Brexit and any other general poll.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#46

Post by physicsguy »

With hard headed view, I struggle to see that an independent Scotland will be economically able to deal with large cuts to public sector spending that would almost certainly be required. Per capita spending is already higher in Scotland than in the rest of the UK. Scottish companies have debts denominated in pounds. There would almost certainly be capital flight to rUK. Large businesses may relocate. There is no plan for a new currency, which would leave Scotland either with a weaker currency than sterling, or with a currency it has no influence over.

The UK is obviously suffering economically because of Brexit - an economic relationship that was built up over 40 years or so. Scotland, England and Wales have been a country since 1707. Just imagine the complication of breaking that. It makes Brexit look like a tiny job. Scotland would need to set up mirrors of institutions completely administered by Westminster at great cost, with a shrinking and aging population which is poorer, less educated and less healthy than the rest of the UK, even despite much of the things influencing that (healthcare, education) being devolved to the Scottish government since 1997.

I certainly don’t think it’s impossible. But I think it’s like Irish independence - it took the best part of 70 years for Ireland to economically recover. Over that time there was vast emigration to the UK and the US. Part of that was my own family who moved to the UK in the 1950s because of terrible job prospects in the Republic.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#47

Post by camjw »

Erikun wrote: post #33

It’s certainly hard to argue that Scotland shouldn’t be allowed to hold a referendum again. Usually I feel that the one they had a few years back should stand but with brexit the situation feels sufficiently changed that the old result feels dated. But at the same time, the lesson should be that a simple majority is not a sufficient result. Either a qualified majority of some sort, with minimum participation threshol…

Indyref1 got 85% turnout (highest ever turnout for a democratic event in the UK) so at least any reasonable minimum participation threshold should be easily reached.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#48

Post by AshamedCaptain »

brigandish wrote: post #29
afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

As a Brit who voted for Scottish independence last time, against the wishes of many of my family and those around me, if this happens again then I'll vote against the SNP's wishes. They said it was a once in generation vote. I made my case, as did everyone else, we all had the chance to vote on it, and my side lost. Democratic votes need the consent of the loser, not I didn't get my way so let's have another vote . B…

And that, as they say, is why we vote the Prime Minister and parliament for life, instead of having repeated elections every 5 years.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#49

Post by pojzon »

easytiger wrote: post #13
ivolimmen wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Dutch and EU citizen I fully understand their motivation. I also regretted to see England leave the EU.

Will you feel the same way when the EU seeks the end of veto powers (as is currently happening)? https://timesofmalta.com/articles/view/european-parliament-a...

Which is going to get introduced because nations like Hungary, led by oil oligarchs connected to Russia, want to fk over whole EU for their personal gain.

You should work towards stronger union not weaken it.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#50

Post by eyko »

carnitine wrote: post #18
madeofpalk wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around Not judging, I'm honestly curious why you didn't want them to be independent and thought that, "as a Brit" it was your position to have an opinion on Scotland's independence other than "whatever they want"? Me, Australian living in England.

Because fracturing your country and making it poorer and smaller probably isn’t desirable?

Smaller is desireable (leaner government, and fairer representation). Poorer is a matter of opinion -- Scotland has a healthy economy.
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