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Scotland starts renewed case for independence

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Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#101

Post by happy_path »

eyko wrote: post #40
afavour wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believed that the UK is better off as a united country. Not all that different from the logic for the UK staying in the EU: larger economic markets help everyone. A union of likeminded nations is better then isolation. I also have both English and Scottish relatives (one reason I consider myself a “Brit”) so you could say the concept plays into my self image. > it was your position to have an opinion I suppose I co…

Scotland can be independent _and_ be in the same economic market (ignoring UK and Spain willing to veto Scotland reentering EU out of spite / own political motives).

Spain will only veto Scotland if the independence is not agreed between the UK and Scotland (in the same spirit of Spain's opinion of Kosovo independence).

Spain parliament is against unilateral declarations of independence.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#103

Post by martindevans »

ivolimmen wrote: post #25
easytiger wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will you feel the same way when the EU seeks the end of veto powers (as is currently happening)? https://timesofmalta.com/articles/view/european-parliament-a...

Yes. My view on the EU is that it is far from perfect but the fact that we collaborate on a larger scale is necessary and we should only try to enhance it. At some point (500+ years?) we should be one planet, that should the goal. (Sorry; I am out-of-this-world-super-left).

One huge government ruling the entire world sounds out-of-this-world-super dystopian to me!

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#104

Post by dankboys »

cstross wrote: post #51
smcl wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the fringe far-right parties have all but disintegrated, but the Tories have certainly drifted rightward and they're essentially untouchable in England in spite of ... well, everything

That's my point. UKIP and BXP disintegrated because their more competent members colonized the Conservative Party, which is now much more radical and far-right than it was under Cameron. The only surviving cabinet minister from Cameron's era (2010-2016) is Michael Gove. The rest are all new faces with far right credentials and a commitment to the hardest of hard Brexits.

Nothing says "British far right" like a Cabinet full of ethnic minorities.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#105

Post by Erikun »

dataengineer56 wrote: post #75
lordnacho wrote: post #7

I don't see why not. The whole leaving the EU thing is a reasonable cause for independence. In general I like smaller units of government too, and it's not as if they can't cooperate with the UK in areas where they agree. I do have a horse in this race as I have Scottish family who'd have more choices with an EU passport.

Scotland wouldn't meet the criteria to join the EU - it's far too poor and small by itself. Exiting the UK would just isolate them more.

That isnt correct, perhaps "poor" might be a problem depending on what dept Scotland would have after independence, but definetly not small.

Joining criteria are (https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/enlargement-p...):

* stable institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities;

* a functioning market economy and the capacity to cope with competition and market forces in the EU;

* the ability to take on and implement effectively the obligations of membership, including adherence to the aims of political, economic and monetary union.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#106

Post by Emma_Goldman »

ggm wrote: post #41
carnitine wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because fracturing your country and making it poorer and smaller probably isn’t desirable?

A non Yugoslavian, I regret the breakup of Yugoslavia immensely but I do wonder if any of the former constituent states would agree with you regarding Scotland or me regarding Yugoslavia? Note that it's an open question if the Scots economy would remain worse per capita, not disagreeing there is/was pain ahead in transition.

> "Note that it's an open question if the Scots economy would remain worse per capita, not disagreeing there is/was pain ahead in transition"

"Remain" is doing a lot of work here. Scotland runs a sizeable deficit with the rest of the union and with the decline of North Sea oil revenues that will only increase. Of course that might not "remain", but leaving the UK and then joining the EU is going to create a 5-10 year period of turbulence as well.

Still, there's more important things than GDP.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#107

Post by sideshowb »

physicsguy wrote: post #46

With hard headed view, I struggle to see that an independent Scotland will be economically able to deal with large cuts to public sector spending that would almost certainly be required. Per capita spending is already higher in Scotland than in the rest of the UK. Scottish companies have debts denominated in pounds. There would almost certainly be capital flight to rUK. Large businesses may relocate. There is no plan…

Doesn't the fact that Scotland owns the oil fields answer the economic problem, at least while everyone still wants oil? (not rhetorical, I haven't seen the numbers & I presume that's what TFA and its sequels aim to address, among other things).

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#108

Post by atlasunshrugged »

chrisseaton wrote: post #71
ggm wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Significant is your get out clause. The SSP had six or so members and in electoral terms has been significantly more successful than any English or British equivalent except perhaps sinn fein, who were at least notionally socialist and left of labour. How far left do you want to go? Cenfuegos press was Scottish, that's a former angry brigade member.

Isn’t he dead? Hard to argue a dead person is strong!

I dunno, in my home state dead men can still win elections! /s https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-hof/dead-rep...

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#109

Post by [deleted] »

Etheryte wrote: post #86
4dregress wrote: post #23

I don't see it happening, we've been through far too much in the last 10 years to inflict even more damage. I've asked this question many times but how is it feasible for Scotland to become Independent: 1. They currently don't meet the requirements to join the EU. Are they going to skip the current waiting list? 2. How will they create a military? 3. Still a big question mark over currency and Scotland's debt. 4. Own…

Perhaps I simply don't understand what you mean, but none of those questions seem very complex? For 1-3, see any Baltic states in the early 90s who are now a part of the EU. Just because you don't meet the requirements to join right away doesn't mean you can't do it over time. As for 4, naturally Scotland would own its own natural resources, what's ambiguous about that?

[deleted]

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#110

Post by brigandish »

Semaphor wrote: post #56
brigandish wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Brit who voted for Scottish independence last time, against the wishes of many of my family and those around me, if this happens again then I'll vote against the SNP's wishes. They said it was a once in generation vote. I made my case, as did everyone else, we all had the chance to vote on it, and my side lost. Democratic votes need the consent of the loser, not I didn't get my way so let's have another vote . B…

> a third of those voting for independence also want(ed) independence from the EU Do you have a source for that? I only heard of the opposite, but that was mainly Reddit and HN where Europeans are usually pretty pro-EU.

No, because if I search for the polls that show it I only get results for this news! Sorry. There were a few polls that showed it at the time of both referendums, the BBC definitely covered it. If I find one in amongst the sea of bad search results I'll post it.

It shouldn't be a surprise logically, as the cases can be seen as similar, but the media prefer the simple black and white cases so we're a rarely spoken of breed.

Edit: sorry, typo, I wrote "It should be a surprise" when I meant "It shouldn't be a surprise".

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