Scotland starts renewed case for independence • Hacker News Board

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#551

Post by jleyank » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 1:53 PM UTC

oblio wrote: post #537

jleyank wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, then socialism and communism aren’t associated with the far left. This makes right/left terms about where they sit in parliament. We’re trapped by common usage when it comes to jargon, and your usage of fascism vs. Nazism shows you’re not parsing them correctly. The former was a corporatist state that preserved trappings and some legitimacy of existing governmental power. The latter, well, didn’t. How about: lead…

> communism isn’t associated with the far left In what world? :-))

The same world where fascism isn’t associated with the far right. Where jargon is fluid and arbitrary. Was responding to previous post trying to separate fascism/right wing.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#552

Post by scott_w » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 1:53 PM UTC

camjw wrote: post #538

scott_w wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I expect the Supreme Court to rule on extremely impactful and controversial government policy that interacts with international law. That’s a huge part of its job. Whether I think it’s legal is based on what the policy is, whether it was passed into law by Parliament (in this case, there’s no Act of Parliament), what legal experts have said, whether it’s been tested by the courts. You know, how most sensible people m…

Yeah I guess it's just interesting because there's a difference between saying its "immoral" vs "illegal". An Act of Parliament has been passed (Nationality and Borders Act 2022) which gives the legal backing for this, explicitly says that refugees which still have a pending asylum application can be moved to a "safe third country" which is willing to take the asylum responsibilities. Does this change your mind that…

No for two reasons:

- it might still violate the Human Rights Act

- it’s still a matter for debate whether Rwanda is safe for refugees

Just reading one Act isn’t enough because real life is complicated.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#553

Post by DocTomoe » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 1:55 PM UTC

atlasunshrugged wrote: post #408

Jcowell wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I get a source on this? From my shallow understanding of history. Europe is the source of Europe’s problems.

Most does sound like quite a stretch but to be fair the U.S. has certainly caused some regional issues (e.g. slowing growth by cutting off trade with Iran, electronic surveillance in Europe on allies, pushing EU countries to buy American arms instead of developing domestic industries, pushing for large beneficial trade deals like nuclear plants that benefit American companies). But yes, most does not seem fair either…

Don't forget about the countless wars of aggression the US has waged virtually everywhere on the globe in the last 80 years, or the constant 'regime changing' in unstable countries, most of them leading to an endless stream of refugees that end up on European shores.

Right about now, the US was a major factor in Euromaidan, in an attempt to weaken both Russia and the EU (say hello to Mrs. Nuland, will ya?), which directly paved the way to today's Ukraino-Russian war.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#554

Post by swarnie » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 1:58 PM UTC

stoneman24 wrote: post #399

swarnie wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some really basic questions will need to be answered. 1) What currecny are you using? 2) Where is your central bank? 3) What debt will you be departing with? 4) What cuts will be required when you can no longer take 32bn a year via the Barnett formula? Just simple, fundamental things really.

Additional difficult questions that need to determined before a final vote. 5) exact geographic boundaries for oil/gas fields 6) exact rights on fishing areas 7) how to split the financial assets of the UK 8) how trade deals continue / stop Scotland has approx 10% of the UK population, should that be used as the criteria for the separation ? Should we get 10% of the assets held by the Bank of England

Dont forget the nuke bases up there... Not something you can move over night im afraid.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#555

Post by iso1631 » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 1:58 PM UTC

mvc wrote: post #502

iso1631 wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They haven't been for the last 10 to 15 years. https://www.statista.com/statistics/350890/united-kingdom-uk...

"past performance is no guarantee of future results"

Betting an economy on a high price of oil seems risky, especially when you're a minor player

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#556

Post by cyberpunk » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 1:59 PM UTC

brigandish wrote: post #199

cyberpunk wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I voted against it as I didn't want to lose my EU membership; which we were told would happen. A few years later, an unrepresentative (to scotland) tory government takes it from us anyway because they were frightened of nigel farage and some middle englanders don't like hearing polish in their local tescos. A lot of my friends who were remain for various reasons seem to be leaning towards independence. 'We were told…

> A few years later, an unrepresentative (to scotland) tory government takes it from us anyway because they were frightened of nigel farage and some middle englanders don't like hearing polish in their local tescos. You want a referendum because other people you disagree with were given a referendum that you then lost? And you paint this as "tory government takes it from us"? I also note that millions voted, it'd be…

It's not quite as straightforward as that.

Scotland overwhelmingly voted remain. Scotland also is not represented by the Tory government in Westminster.

These are constitutional issues, and the people should be given the choice if they want this to continue or not.

I don't think being asked to chose is undemocratic, it's /exactly/ democracy. Let the people decide.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#557

Post by orra » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 2:01 PM UTC

gadders wrote: post #526

orra wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All those. Plus, threatening peace and stability in Northern Ireland, first by pursuing a hard Brexit at all costs, and now by tearing up the Northern Ireland protocol.

Yes, it is entirely correct that the IRA determine the UK's custom borders. Completely foolish to think otherwise.

This is a nonsense comment, but you probably know that. Northern Ireland was opposed to Brexit, and the Northern Ireland Protocol is supported by a majority of representatives in Northern Ireland. Nothing to do with the IRA.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#558

Post by mvc » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 2:02 PM UTC

petesergeant wrote: post #512

mvc wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that Westminster can if it chooses to "stick the boot in", together with the possibility that it might, is evidence enough IMO to support independence. The trust has gone. I want us ruling our own affairs.

Would you support Shetland independence, even if it meant Scotland losing most of its oil revenue?

The oil revenue is a short-term concern.

In 30 years, hopefully there's zero oil revenue.

But what happens in the meantime is important. I have zero faith that a UK government will invest in alternatives that will generate wealth for people living in Scotland.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#559

Post by Wildgoose » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 2:05 PM UTC

gizajob wrote: post #453

jmyeet wrote: post #209

I don't believe Scotland will (or should) become independent for exactly the same reasons Northern Ireland should be reunified with Ireland: land borders. Scotland shares a land border with England. If Scotland were part of the EU it would have to have a harder border with England. It may exclude itself from the Schengen zone but there's still the EU customs union. Northern Ireland was the real sticking point in Brex…

But Hadrian's wall is already there. We'd just need to fix a few of the holes and throw up some checkpoints and the border would be sorted!

Hadrian's Wall is entirely in England. The Anglo-Scottish border more closely follows the River Tweed until it reaches Berwick, (part of England).

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#560

Post by rayiner » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 2:05 PM UTC

smcl wrote: post #501

rayiner wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Labour has come to be run by London elites that hate the values of the party’s working class base. In that climate, Tories simply need a pulse to win elections.

I think they could still enjoy success while being run by London elites, if they even pretended to stand up to the Tories or painted themselves as a meaningful alternative they'd clean up. They just seem to be very content sitting as in opposition to the Tories administering the UK in a very slow, sleepy decline.

Labour has made it clear what they really stand for: the liberal culture values of the urban elite, while paying lip service to, you know, labor. The more they “stand up” on those grounds, the more they will alienate both traditional Labour voters and the working class BAME voters they have become increasingly reliant on.