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Scotland starts renewed case for independence

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Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#501

Post by smcl »

rayiner wrote: post #298
smcl wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the fringe far-right parties have all but disintegrated, but the Tories have certainly drifted rightward and they're essentially untouchable in England in spite of ... well, everything

Labour has come to be run by London elites that hate the values of the party’s working class base. In that climate, Tories simply need a pulse to win elections.

I think they could still enjoy success while being run by London elites, if they even pretended to stand up to the Tories or painted themselves as a meaningful alternative they'd clean up. They just seem to be very content sitting as in opposition to the Tories administering the UK in a very slow, sleepy decline.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#502

Post by mvc »

iso1631 wrote: post #367
mschuster91 wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but Scotland still has to convince the world to lend it a hell of a lot of money every year to pay for those services, even if they took all the North Sea old revenue (which seems an odd thing for a government with Green backing to be relying on) The revenues from oil are going to be somewhat predictably stable for the next ten to fifteen years, there is simply too much infrastructure in Europe that relies on burni…

They haven't been for the last 10 to 15 years. https://www.statista.com/statistics/350890/united-kingdom-uk...

"past performance is no guarantee of future results"

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#503

Post by ncmncm »

brigandish wrote: post #474
ncmncm wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reasons for wanting a referendum are none of your business. It suffices to say they want one. If it fails, then not enough wanted to leave. That is all. When they failed to do Brexit for years running, and it turned out the arguments for were lies, there should have been another Brexit vote. It would have failed, and a great deal of trouble would be saved.

It's strange that I was allowed to vote in the last one if it's none of my business. > they want one. Polls consistently show less than 50%. Perhaps the "they" you meant is the SNP?

The point is you don't know until the vote how it would turn out. If you did know, there would be no need for the vote.

You don't know why the overwhelming majority of them voted as they did. Maybe most of them can't be said to know. It suffices that they voted.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#504

Post by scott_w »

camjw wrote: post #491
scott_w wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re not ruling on legality, they’re refusing to grant injunctions on the flights. This doesn’t mean they’re legal, it means the courts won’t stop those individuals from being deported while the legal case for the policy is being argued. The decision to grant, or not, an injunction is not in itself a judgement on the underlying policy. The court did the former, not the latter.

What would it take to convince you that this policy is not illegal? (For clarity, I agree with you that it is an awful policy.)

Very simply the Supreme Court would have to rule that the policy was legal and detail how it was in line with UN conventions on refugees.

The English courts haven’t done this yet, they just said they won’t issue injunctions to prevent certain deportations.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#505

Post by dahfizz »

jleyank wrote: post #471
temp8964 wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s your reasonable definition of far-right?

There’s a whole lot of working definitions provided by the 20th century that can be used as measuring sticks on the passage to the right. Signs include a breakdown or suppression of a free press, simplification of the political spectrum, identification of and processing of enemies of the state, weakening of the rules and protections of government and so on. A shift from the idea of equality of all (protection of mino…

You're conflating "the right", "far right", fascism, and totalitarianism. Which, I think, is why the term "far right" was invented - so leftists could basically call other people fascists without having to substantiate the claim.

Being "on the right" is about policy. Someone on the right believes in democracy, freedom, capitalism, human rights, etc. They hold policy positions such as lower taxes, controlled immigration, and greater punishment for criminals. These policy positions put them in opposition to those on the left.

Someone "on the right" is not a fascist, and is not nearer being a fascist than someone "on the left". Fascism means the abolition of human rights, democracy, free capitalism, and everything "the right" believes in.

It's common to cherry pick little policy points from previous facsict states and use that as evidence that the right is facsict. "Hitler limited immigration, the Tories want to limit immigration, the Tories are fascist!!!!". That makes no sense. "Mao raised taxes, Biden wants to raise taxes, Biden is literally a communist!!!".

Facsism is not about policy. It is a fundamentally different, totalitarian, way to structure a society.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#506

Post by MrMan »

WJW wrote: post #89
easytiger wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will you feel the same way when the EU seeks the end of veto powers (as is currently happening)? https://timesofmalta.com/articles/view/european-parliament-a...

Not OP but also Dutch. Yes I would definitely like the EU to abolish veto powers and move to a majority rule. Europeans are too divided and need to band together to form a realistic opposition to the US and China. Veto rule is no way to govern a large group, since you only have to bribe a single member to cripple the whole. This has been known since at least the ancient Greek citystate era.

No mention of Russia interesting

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#507

Post by mvc »

petesergeant wrote: post #374
sideshowb wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't the fact that Scotland owns the oil fields answer the economic problem, at least while everyone still wants oil? (not rhetorical, I haven't seen the numbers & I presume that's what TFA and its sequels aim to address, among other things).

The current situation is that the UK, not Scotland, owns the oil fields. A maritime boundary would need to be drawn and negotiated. If Westminster really wanted to stick the boot in, they could offer Shetland a vote on becoming a Crown Dependency first.

The fact that Westminster can if it chooses to "stick the boot in", together with the possibility that it might, is evidence enough IMO to support independence.

The trust has gone. I want us ruling our own affairs.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#508

Post by inglor_cz »

zwirbl wrote: post #449
inglor_cz wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a Czech citizen and a mild Euroskeptic. I definitely do not want the EU to become stronger than it already is. We have had enough experience where obsession with "more power" leads, and I do not want to see this scenario replayed again in slightly different conditions. What I value about current EU is precisely that it cannot just squash dissent by force, even from a single country.

> What I value about current EU is precisely that it cannot just squash dissent by force, even from a single country. And this often means that the EU can't get anything done on an EU wide level

That is, for me, a feature, not a bug. Consent is a great thing.

Many people of smaller nations like Czechs, that regained sovereignty after a long period of subjugation to various powers, do not really want to give it up again so that the French-German axis may have their job easier.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#509

Post by smcl »

dagw wrote: post #484
jpkeisala wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be very popular move for every EU politician to fast track Scotland to EU. But yes, it would be complicated to separate from UK and become independent. Becoming EU member would not be that complicated.

Spain and France aren't super keen on encouraging the general idea that regions of a country can easily split off and become independent EU member countries.

Spain I understand. But I dunno about France. It's not the Auld Alliance is still a thing, but surely they'd relish an opportunity to give England a black eye.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#510

Post by inglor_cz »

prmoustache wrote: post #183
inglor_cz wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From former Czechoslovakia, our disintegration was a mixed parcel. The best thing is that Slovaks had to stand on their own feet and their nationalists slowly had stop blaming everything on Prague. This kind of whiny nationalism embodied by then-prime minister of Slovakia Vladimir Meciar is somewhat disgusting and I can see its softer version in Scotland right now. The worst thing is that yes, our international weigh…

> I cannot imagine the economic pain if the former federation was suddenly divided by a hard border, as Scotland and England would be. It doesn't have to be, even if Scotland was part of EU and not England. UK and Spain/EU negociated maintaining some of the Schengen rules for the Gibraltar/Spain border despite its status still being disputed by Spain and a bumpy history. There is no reason Scotland and rest of UK can…

Looking at the Irish situation right now, I am skeptical about any such treaty with regard to Scotland.
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