Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Scotland starts renewed case for independence

gov.scot

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

531–540 of 745 posts

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#531

Post by smcl »

4dregress wrote: post #23

I don't see it happening, we've been through far too much in the last 10 years to inflict even more damage. I've asked this question many times but how is it feasible for Scotland to become Independent: 1. They currently don't meet the requirements to join the EU. Are they going to skip the current waiting list? 2. How will they create a military? 3. Still a big question mark over currency and Scotland's debt. 4. Own…

If there was a waiting list then there would have been no expansion since 1987 at least, when Turkey began negotiation.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#532

Post by detritus »

inglor_cz wrote: post #44

I still can't really see the case for Scottish independence except nationalism. Scotland has been part of the UK for more than 300 years. It is so tightly integrated into its society and market that a hard border would be rather painful. We have an example of the successor states of Austria-Hungary once the empire collapsed at the end of WWI. The economic situation of businesses that suddenly faced high tariffs acces…

May I ask where you are from? My blood is Scottish and I grew up in the North of England and I can tell you that in the late 90s there was a lot of talk of a Northern Assembly to better represent that end of the country versus Westminster, never mind Scottish parliament or independence.

When I used to travel to London (where I now reside) regularly as a child, I was always bemused by how much of a bubble there was around the South East, in terms of people's consciousness, perspective and blunt media focus. There really was - and still moreso is - a curious myopia for anything North of Watford.

I've not lived up North for over twenty years, but I'm pretty sure the sentiment up there's not gotten any weaker... .

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#533

Post by walkhour »

dataengineer56 wrote: post #75
lordnacho wrote: post #7

I don't see why not. The whole leaving the EU thing is a reasonable cause for independence. In general I like smaller units of government too, and it's not as if they can't cooperate with the UK in areas where they agree. I do have a horse in this race as I have Scottish family who'd have more choices with an EU passport.

Scotland wouldn't meet the criteria to join the EU - it's far too poor and small by itself. Exiting the UK would just isolate them more.

I expect some European countries like Spain to firmly oppose them joining the European Union, to send a message to inner regions that may also want independence.

This idea that Scotland is going to vote for independence from the UK and straight into Europe is far fetched.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#534

Post by oblio »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #473
curiousgal wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will/Would the EU accept Scotland's membership though? What about the currency? It all seems so complicated

At the time of the Scottish independence referendum in 2014, I remember there being warnings from the EU that rejoining would not be a simple matter of just applying for an independent Scotland. I could try to find some links on that if you like, but the way I remember it is that the EU was against the idea of Scotland going it alone and EU officials actively worked to discourage any ideas that an independent Scottla…

The EU was against Scotland unilaterally declaring independence from the UK, because you know, Spain/Catalunya, Romania/Szeklerland, Italy/Veneto, Belgium/Flanders,... (the list is endless).

But otherwise, Scotland was part of a former EU member, I imagine they would not necessarily use the pound (a Scottish pound would probably be weak), so they'd probably adopt the euro in a short while, there is a ton of cultural affinity with the EU, probably more than for England in some regards, etc.

Scotland for sure could get an accelerated membership process if they do decide to become independent. They could even start some of the paperwork or at least contacts before they gain the official independence, I imagine.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#535

Post by oblio »

carlmr wrote: post #489
dagw wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spain and France aren't super keen on encouraging the general idea that regions of a country can easily split off and become independent EU member countries.

But Scotland is already a country.

Ever heard of that thing called the "Basque >", for example? :-)

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#536

Post by oblio »

curiousgal wrote: post #315
k_sze wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

During the Brexit debacle, I joked with my Scottish ex-boss that, one day, Scotland will leave the UK, rejoin the EU, and then reabsorb the UK. And then the UK will be renamed United Kingdom of Scotland instead of United Kingdom of Great Britain. He laughed.

Will/Would the EU accept Scotland's membership though? What about the currency? It all seems so complicated

The EU would for sure accept the membership request. They'd probably accelerate it, even.

Before Brexit the only blocker was a unilateral declaration of independence, which will not happen. Scottish independence will most likely be a mutual separation.

And after that the Scottish budget will be hammered hard so I imagine they'd definitely want to join the EU ASAP to get help. Access to huge markets for exports, cheaper imports, EU funding for developing regions, etc.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#537

Post by oblio »

jleyank wrote: post #521
dahfizz wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're conflating "the right", "far right", fascism, and totalitarianism. Which, I think, is why the term "far right" was invented - so leftists could basically call other people fascists without having to substantiate the claim. Being "on the right" is about policy. Someone on the right believes in democracy, freedom, capitalism, human rights, etc. They hold policy positions such as lower taxes, controlled immigrati…

Ok, then socialism and communism aren’t associated with the far left. This makes right/left terms about where they sit in parliament. We’re trapped by common usage when it comes to jargon, and your usage of fascism vs. Nazism shows you’re not parsing them correctly. The former was a corporatist state that preserved trappings and some legitimacy of existing governmental power. The latter, well, didn’t. How about: lead…

> communism isn’t associated with the far left

In what world? :-))

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#538

Post by camjw »

scott_w wrote: post #528
camjw wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you expect the Supreme Court to rule on all government policy? Is it the case that you feel government policy is illegal until ruled legal by the SC? Sort of guilty until proven innocent? If the SC decides not to rule, say it just dismisses the case (not sure what the mechanisms are here) would the policy be perpetually illegal or would that be taken as tacit legality of the policy? This does seem logically consis…

I expect the Supreme Court to rule on extremely impactful and controversial government policy that interacts with international law. That’s a huge part of its job. Whether I think it’s legal is based on what the policy is, whether it was passed into law by Parliament (in this case, there’s no Act of Parliament), what legal experts have said, whether it’s been tested by the courts. You know, how most sensible people m…

Yeah I guess it's just interesting because there's a difference between saying its "immoral" vs "illegal". An Act of Parliament has been passed (Nationality and Borders Act 2022) which gives the legal backing for this, explicitly says that refugees which still have a pending asylum application can be moved to a "safe third country" which is willing to take the asylum responsibilities. Does this change your mind that the policy is legal, given that the information available has expanded to include, you know, all the Acts of Parliament?

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#539

Post by tut-urut-utut »

pojzon wrote: post #297
tut-urut-utut wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not a Hungarian citizen, but I am grateful that Hungary often has enough courage to call nonsense a nonsense and use or threaten with their veto to bring a bit of sanity in the EU. Heck, I can say that Hungary voted more frequently in my interest than my government. The EU is frequently used to push some regulations in favour of big corps that would never pass in any of the national parliaments without a big fig…

Can you give any example of Hungary and Poland vetoing in good faith ? Lately it seems they only cover own ass, while all other states are in agreement. When only you see a problem its often the case you are the problem not the other way around. Ps. I say that as a Polish citizen.

> Can you give any example of Hungary and Poland vetoing in good faith ?

Hungary and Poland were the only countries opposing the unlimited migration. Hungary is the only country that pushes back on sanctions that harms us in Germany more than them in Russia. Austria and Netherlands were opposing a huge debt package to fight corona.

> Lately it seems they only cover own ass, while all other states are in agreement.

Maybe state governments are in the agreements, but not the majority of population. In Germany, some topics were truly polarizing, governments frequently voted for topics that had domestic majority against it, and Hungary and Poland voted for what represents the will of German population majority.

On the other hand, in capitalistic economic theory, the only way to get a sane system is if everyone acts only in its own self-interest. Asking humans to do something for "common or higher good" usually leads to one party exploiting the other.

> When only you see a problem its often the case you are the problem not the other way around.

I doubt that in Europe, we ever had that strong consensus between European citizens. It's usually that governments have strong consensus that is not always reflected in the population.

Instead of ditching veto right, I would rather go the other direction, to the more Swiss style direct democracy, where power would be brought back to people, and away from the governments. If citizen could decide on important topics, we would not need veto at all.

> Ps. I say that as a Polish citizen.

As a German citizen, I wish you more power to your citizens, as opposed to EU or polish goverment, even when we have different preferences.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#540

Post by dankboys »

scott_w wrote: post #156
dankboys wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing says "British far right" like a Cabinet full of ethnic minorities.

Our Home Secretary has just instituted an illegal policy of deporting African and Asian refugees to Rwanda. Irrespective of the colour of her skin, her actions are those of the far right.

The...legal policy?
Post reply on HN