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Scotland starts renewed case for independence

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Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#521

Post by jleyank »

dahfizz wrote: post #505
jleyank wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a whole lot of working definitions provided by the 20th century that can be used as measuring sticks on the passage to the right. Signs include a breakdown or suppression of a free press, simplification of the political spectrum, identification of and processing of enemies of the state, weakening of the rules and protections of government and so on. A shift from the idea of equality of all (protection of mino…

You're conflating "the right", "far right", fascism, and totalitarianism. Which, I think, is why the term "far right" was invented - so leftists could basically call other people fascists without having to substantiate the claim. Being "on the right" is about policy. Someone on the right believes in democracy, freedom, capitalism, human rights, etc. They hold policy positions such as lower taxes, controlled immigrati…

Ok, then socialism and communism aren’t associated with the far left. This makes right/left terms about where they sit in parliament. We’re trapped by common usage when it comes to jargon, and your usage of fascism vs. Nazism shows you’re not parsing them correctly. The former was a corporatist state that preserved trappings and some legitimacy of existing governmental power. The latter, well, didn’t.

How about: leaders workers -> government -> leaders. Which I can’t format in a circle. And the presence or absence of “for all” can be a tell about where on the political spectrum people or groups sit.

It’s generally accepted that the red states sit to the right vs. the blue states and the us sits to the right of Western Europe. There’s a spectrum of countries as there’s a spectrum of states (or provinces in Canada). The “political middle ground” can be constructed from this set and then decorated with secular or religions states from elsewhere throughout.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#522

Post by afavour »

DonaldFisk wrote: post #430
Emma_Goldman wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea what you are talking about. In the UK general election citizens of all realms of the UK vote, meaning that Scotland being more left-wing has led to comparatively more left-wing UK governments than would be the case in its absence. So 'if you want rid of the Tories', Scotland is a great asset.

The union worked well as long as voters in Scotland and England voted similarly, but that hasn't been the case since the 1970s. Scottish voters only rarely influence the outcome of elections to the Westminster parliament, because even thought they vote differently, they only make up about 10% of the GB population (Northern Ireland has different political parties). Almost always, whatever the English electorate votes…

IMO any discussion about “fairness” is null and void while the U.K. has a FPTP electoral system. It’s inherently unfair and a poor representation of voters wishes, no matter which country they live in.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#523

Post by justin66 »

brigandish wrote: post #29
afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

As a Brit who voted for Scottish independence last time, against the wishes of many of my family and those around me, if this happens again then I'll vote against the SNP's wishes. They said it was a once in generation vote. I made my case, as did everyone else, we all had the chance to vote on it, and my side lost. Democratic votes need the consent of the loser, not I didn't get my way so let's have another vote . B…

> As a Brit who voted for Scottish independence last time, against the wishes of many of my family and those around me, if this happens again then I'll vote against the SNP's wishes.

You don't believe they should hold the vote again so soon, and so in the event of another vote your reaction will be to... participate in the vote you do not believe should be held, but cast a ballot against the outcome you want? What is the crazy logic there?

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#524

Post by smcl »

reillyse wrote: post #62
bestinterest wrote: post #19

I voted no last time round as I was not convinced on the economic side of things. Truthfully I'm still not convinced but I'm finding it hard to justify staying on the sinking ship of the UK. I'd rather fail as a country by our own decisions rather than the Scottish government always being able to point to Westminister for failure. I wish more world wide economists took time to write arguments for/against Scottish ind…

I think it's pretty easy to see examples of what Scotland could be. Have a look over the Irish sea and Ireland is doing very well for itself just a little over 100 years after independence ("full" independence obviously happening slightly later). It seems very obvious to me that when decisions are made locally they are made in the interests of the people who are local. Being on the periphery of a country is not ideal…

> very very poor and depressed country

Scotland suffered greatly from the decline of a few key industries in the 70s and 80s so and parts of it are indeed poor and in decline. But if you're to categorise a country by its very poorest areas, you'll end up saying the USA, France, England are very very poor and depressed.

Scotland isn't Norway - that ship has long sailed and we should discard any ideas that oil wealth can still take us there. But it's not, no offense intended, Moldova and it's wrong to think of it that way.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#525

Post by temp8964 »

jleyank wrote: post #471
temp8964 wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s your reasonable definition of far-right?

There’s a whole lot of working definitions provided by the 20th century that can be used as measuring sticks on the passage to the right. Signs include a breakdown or suppression of a free press, simplification of the political spectrum, identification of and processing of enemies of the state, weakening of the rules and protections of government and so on. A shift from the idea of equality of all (protection of mino…

> Signs include a breakdown or suppression of a free press, simplification of the political spectrum, identification of and processing of enemies of the state, weakening of the rules and protections of government and so on. A shift from the idea of equality of all (protection of minorities) towards the will of the majority.

The Chinese Communist Party has all the stuff you listed here.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#526

Post by gadders »

orra wrote: post #175
c16 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. A PM who lies about attending a party, and runs with the lie until he is forced to admit it by a report and photographic evidence. 2. A PM who lied to the Queen. 3. Food poverty on the up [1] 5. £350m a week for NHS post Brexit, and yet that was a blatant lie. NHS now struggling with many staff quitting post covid and as a result of increased work load due to brexit. The list goes on. [1] British medical journal (…

All those. Plus, threatening peace and stability in Northern Ireland, first by pursuing a hard Brexit at all costs, and now by tearing up the Northern Ireland protocol.

Yes, it is entirely correct that the IRA determine the UK's custom borders. Completely foolish to think otherwise.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#527

Post by gadders »

c16 wrote: post #60
easytiger wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compared with whom and on what criteria?

1. A PM who lies about attending a party, and runs with the lie until he is forced to admit it by a report and photographic evidence. 2. A PM who lied to the Queen. 3. Food poverty on the up [1] 5. £350m a week for NHS post Brexit, and yet that was a blatant lie. NHS now struggling with many staff quitting post covid and as a result of increased work load due to brexit. The list goes on. [1] British medical journal (…

Also a leader of her majesty's opposition who lied about attending a party.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#528

Post by scott_w »

camjw wrote: post #518
scott_w wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very simply the Supreme Court would have to rule that the policy was legal and detail how it was in line with UN conventions on refugees. The English courts haven’t done this yet, they just said they won’t issue injunctions to prevent certain deportations.

Do you expect the Supreme Court to rule on all government policy? Is it the case that you feel government policy is illegal until ruled legal by the SC? Sort of guilty until proven innocent? If the SC decides not to rule, say it just dismisses the case (not sure what the mechanisms are here) would the policy be perpetually illegal or would that be taken as tacit legality of the policy? This does seem logically consis…

I expect the Supreme Court to rule on extremely impactful and controversial government policy that interacts with international law. That’s a huge part of its job.

Whether I think it’s legal is based on what the policy is, whether it was passed into law by Parliament (in this case, there’s no Act of Parliament), what legal experts have said, whether it’s been tested by the courts.

You know, how most sensible people make decisions: they look at the information available and make a decision based on that.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#529

Post by jleyank »

temp8964 wrote: post #525
jleyank wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a whole lot of working definitions provided by the 20th century that can be used as measuring sticks on the passage to the right. Signs include a breakdown or suppression of a free press, simplification of the political spectrum, identification of and processing of enemies of the state, weakening of the rules and protections of government and so on. A shift from the idea of equality of all (protection of mino…

> Signs include a breakdown or suppression of a free press, simplification of the political spectrum, identification of and processing of enemies of the state, weakening of the rules and protections of government and so on. A shift from the idea of equality of all (protection of minorities) towards the will of the majority. The Chinese Communist Party has all the stuff you listed here.

True, and I stated the spectrum is a circle with absolutism or totalitarian being a leader-only political setup. The workers might own the means of production in China but they damned well better not try to act on that thought. Ask jack ma.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#530

Post by NoGravitas »

martindevans wrote: post #103
ivolimmen wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. My view on the EU is that it is far from perfect but the fact that we collaborate on a larger scale is necessary and we should only try to enhance it. At some point (500+ years?) we should be one planet, that should the goal. (Sorry; I am out-of-this-world-super-left).

One huge government ruling the entire world sounds out-of-this-world-super dystopian to me!

United Earth sounds super dystopian?

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/United_Earth

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