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Scotland starts renewed case for independence

gov.scot

141–150 of 745 posts

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#141

One quite important issue is the border. English and Scottish people will almost certainly never tolerate any kind of friction at that border. We've been moving across it seamlessly for centuries, families are mixed, businesses straddle the border, etc. If the Northern Ireland debacle has shown us anything, it's if Scotland were to leave and then join the EU that border would become an absolute political nightmare. T…

Right but it's not the English and Scottish people who will decide this. It's whoever happens to be at the helm in Scotland and rUK. If it's the Tories in charge down south (spoiler: barring any monumental shift in Labour policy and attitude, it will be) then they've witnessed that the post-brexit chaos and uncertainty has left them relatively unscathed - they can basically do what they like and it would not surprise me in the slightest if they were extremely hard-line and punitive in negotiation over how the country splits.

Maybe not quite as extreme as the Anglo-Irish trade war, but it won't be pretty.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#142
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not British or Scottish and have no skin in the game, but what is the harm in revoting if things seem to have changed? Either things didn’t change and everyone votes the same anyway, in which case it was a waste of time but reconfirms the status quo, or things actually are different and then you know and can act on it. Is there a special history or feature in UK democracy where things are only ever voted on one…

How often do you think independence referenda should be held?

Whenever the people vote for it. The SNP (and Greens) were crystal clear in their manifestos in the last elections and people voted for it. In general, people hope that the politicians should do what they said that they would. With Brexit and Tory policies over 10 years, it seems reasonable to have the vote. I would prefer one vote to start the process and final confirmation vote once the exact deal is established. Always a good idea to know exactly what is being offered before taking the deal (total opposite of Brexit) [scot living in Scotland]

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around Not judging, I'm honestly curious why you didn't want them to be independent and thought that, "as a Brit" it was your position to have an opinion on Scotland's independence other than "whatever they want"? Me, Australian living in England.

As another Brit, a Londoner, who didn't want Scotland to go. 1. Because I enjoy living in a country that has the Scots in it - without Scotland the country would be diminished, less interesting and more insular. 2. Generally, I think fracturing is a bad thing. I wanted to stay in the EU for similar reasons. This isn't to say that I don't think that Scots should have self determination, just that I would be sad if the…

If it were Queensland, the rest of us would probably be okay with it.

Edit: just to clarify, that was meant as a good-natured ribbing. We’d definitely miss Queensland. Mostly Noosa.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#144

I don't see why not. The whole leaving the EU thing is a reasonable cause for independence. In general I like smaller units of government too, and it's not as if they can't cooperate with the UK in areas where they agree. I do have a horse in this race as I have Scottish family who'd have more choices with an EU passport.

Scotland wouldn't meet the criteria to join the EU - it's far too poor and small by itself. Exiting the UK would just isolate them more.

The formal criteria are that a country is a stable market democracy, other than that accession is really a political matter (see Ukraine and Turkey). Clearly there would be a groundswell of support for incorporating a Scotland fleeing from Brexitland. It would be a coup for the EU.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#145
post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

Don’t most anti-Brexit arguments have direct anti-independence analogues?

Not really, no. Can you give an example of one?

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#146
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> stronger far left I’m not sure there’s any significant ‘far left’ in Scotland. What groups are you thinking of? There’s also of course a very large nationalist component.

Firstly I'd agree that there's not a significant far left political party in Scotland (Scottish Greens, perhaps?) but it is still more left-leaning overall. But re the "nationalist" bit - that word is overloaded. So the word usually means a couple of things: 1. "far-right beliefs that centre on religious and ethnic hatred" 2. or, "a desire to become an independent nation" In this case when people say the SNP is natio…

Nationalism in the context of SNP (and as a concept in general) simply refers to the desire/belief that the state and nation should be synonymous. The problem is that not everyone's interpretation of national identity is the same, so the in the end all you get is populism used to push a belief. The answer to the question "What is Scotland, anyway?" is not as clear as politicians would like it to be.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#147
post #90
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For non-UK people: There are four nations in the UK (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland). But England has roughly 90% of the population of the UK. So what England votes for in an all-nations referendum, the rest of the UK gets. England voted for Brexit by a narrow-ish majority. But Scotland voted against Brexit by a huge margin -- 62/38, or approximately 3:2. Ironically, the year before the Brexit referendum…

If Scottish leave voters hadn't turned out then the referendum would have resulted in "remain". So it's interesting to say in that context that "Scotland voted to remain" as many people simplify it to. 3:2 is a big margin and it's meaningful, but it doesn't define Scots.

And if Scottish "remain" voters hadn't turned out?

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#148
Normally just asking the same question until you get the one you want would be a bad thing. Having a question after a generation of sustained support would be fine. It doesn't look like there's any sustained support from polling even with the Westminster shambles, but the SNP keep doing well in the elections.

However there have been material changes since 2014. In 2014 a key point was there was no guarantee that Scotland would be admitted into the EU after "scoxit", and if they didn't it would cause chaos. The UK (specifically the majority of people in England and Wales who bothered to vote, which outweighed NI and Scotland's majorities against chaos) voted for that chaos anyway.

I worry that there wouldn't be a detailed plan though, same problem as brexit. What will independence actually mean. If you were born in Scotland but live in Carlisle, do you get a Scottish passport? What if you own a second house in Scotland? Or would it be your income tax residence, if so on what date? What will border controls look like for people (both practical day to day, and things like living or working cross border). What about goods and services. Will Scotland's use a currency guaranteed by the Bank of England like some countries use the US dollar, or will they create their own Scottish Pound. Then of course that's all the arguments about the maritime border, allocating the UK's existing assets and debt, what happens with the military (will Scotland have an independent army, will it join NATO, will it contribute to rUK's defence, what about existing military bases), head of State (does Scotland keep the Queen [King]), etc.

I think that having a first vote, two options

* Scotland should form a detailed plan by Dec 31st 2027 to be put to a yes/no referendum before June 1st 2028 * Scotland should maintain the status quo and not have any further independence referendum before Jan 1st 2040

Which would be enabled by legislation to ensure that the rest of the UK fully cooperates with that plan, and authorizing Scotland to attempt to talk to international groups (EU, UN, NATO etc) about transition

That would then be followed a detailed plan which answers those questions (and more), and then a "are you sure" vote, would be sensible.

Do you support the Scottish independence plan

> Yes, Scotland should become an independent country on Jan 1st 2029 following the detailed independence plan

> No, Scotland should maintain the status quo until at least Jan 1st 2040

My browser asks me to confirm when I try to quit, having an "are you sure" question for major constitutional change makes sense.

I personally think it's actually a worse idea now than it was in 2014 because of brexit -- we'd end up with the NI chaos but with a land border rather than the sea border. If we were part of a wider economic union then it would be fine, but that means Scotland giving up their say in the rules but still having to follow them, just like the UK and EU. In 2014 if Scotland were admitted into the EU it would have been fine, probably a good move.

However my views are worth about as much as my views on Italian elections. It's entirely upto the people of Scotland, and I don't live in Scotland. My brother in law might be affected, he lives in North Cumbria as a builder, sometimes he works in Cumbria, sometimes Northumberland, sometimes in Dumfries, but that's self determination for you, and I always support self determination, be it for Falklands or Puerto Rico, Catalonia or Northern Ireland, Gibraltar or Crimea, Ukraine or Puerto Rico.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#149

One quite important issue is the border. English and Scottish people will almost certainly never tolerate any kind of friction at that border. We've been moving across it seamlessly for centuries, families are mixed, businesses straddle the border, etc. If the Northern Ireland debacle has shown us anything, it's if Scotland were to leave and then join the EU that border would become an absolute political nightmare. T…

well, we can see that trouble around Northern Ireland. Currnetly there is a somewhat border between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, to keep the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland limited. But that state can't really work for a United Kingdom.

If() an independent Scotland would happen to join the EU there wouldnhave to be somenborder to UK (whatever is remaining) as well.

) I think before anybody (Balkan countries, Turkey, Ukraine, Scotland, ...) can join EU the EU requires some reform and decision on what it actually wants to be, so I don't see the fast path, even though Scotland fulfills most EU standards when starting with current British law, as it was shaped along with EU

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Brit who voted for Scottish independence last time, against the wishes of many of my family and those around me, if this happens again then I'll vote against the SNP's wishes. They said it was a once in generation vote. I made my case, as did everyone else, we all had the chance to vote on it, and my side lost. Democratic votes need the consent of the loser, not I didn't get my way so let's have another vote . B…

> Democratic votes need the consent of the loser, not I didn't get my way so let's have another vote. That's only true till the situation changes. If the reason for your vote disappeared, then it's legit to reevaluate your vote. > a third of those voting for independence also want(ed) independence from the EU Which means two third, the majority, voted for the EU? Seems like a legit reason for a new vote.

Anyone can claim the situation has changed, every year. Life does not go backwards. I'm still not clear why that means "once in a generation" becomes "as soon as I can get what I want".

> > a third of those voting for independence also want(ed) independence from the EU

> Which means two third, the majority, voted for the EU? Seems like a legit reason for a new vote.

Has that figure changed dramatically? Even if it had, I would go back to why that means "once in a generation" doesn't mean "once in a generation".

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