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Scotland starts renewed case for independence

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Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#51

Post by cstross »

smcl wrote: post #30
carnitine wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d say post-Brexit England has drifted away from the far right. The whole EDL/Britain First/UKIP sentiment has only waned massively since then. The ruling government has not come close to far right at any point.

Perhaps the fringe far-right parties have all but disintegrated, but the Tories have certainly drifted rightward and they're essentially untouchable in England in spite of ... well, everything

That's my point.

UKIP and BXP disintegrated because their more competent members colonized the Conservative Party, which is now much more radical and far-right than it was under Cameron.

The only surviving cabinet minister from Cameron's era (2010-2016) is Michael Gove. The rest are all new faces with far right credentials and a commitment to the hardest of hard Brexits.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#52

Post by mvc »

tick_tock_tick wrote: post #8

It's one thing to push for independence itself to gain full sovereignty, though with the implication they'd join the EU right away they wouldn't have it for long, but don't pretend like it's somehow going to make Scotland "better".

> don't pretend like it's somehow going to make Scotland "better".

Isn't that the essence of politics?

You're basically trying to convince people that the system would be "better" if things were run the way you proscribe vs someone else. Of course different people have different preferences so it's likely some will perceive it as "better" and others will perceive it as "worse".

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#53

Post by ginko »

easytiger wrote: post #13
ivolimmen wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Dutch and EU citizen I fully understand their motivation. I also regretted to see England leave the EU.

Will you feel the same way when the EU seeks the end of veto powers (as is currently happening)? https://timesofmalta.com/articles/view/european-parliament-a...

Yes. The veto power allowed individual countries to block major decisions. Require 2/3 majorities for important stuff if you want but requiring all country leaders to agree on everything makes the EU too slow.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#54

Post by 4dregress »

Brexit was a terrible idea and a gamble which failed miserably.

I think what we will see play out is a Labour Libdem coalition which will get us back into the single market. Eventually we will get a single party government again and hopefully by then the world will be a much stabler place...

Oh climate change...

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#55

Post by Angostura »

madeofpalk wrote: post #14
afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

> As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around Not judging, I'm honestly curious why you didn't want them to be independent and thought that, "as a Brit" it was your position to have an opinion on Scotland's independence other than "whatever they want"? Me, Australian living in England.

As another Brit, a Londoner, who didn't want Scotland to go.

1. Because I enjoy living in a country that has the Scots in it - without Scotland the country would be diminished, less interesting and more insular.

2. Generally, I think fracturing is a bad thing. I wanted to stay in the EU for similar reasons.

This isn't to say that I don't think that Scots should have self determination, just that I would be sad if they went.

I imagine some Australians would feel the sanme if - say - New South Wales decided to become an independent country

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#56

Post by Semaphor »

brigandish wrote: post #29
afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

As a Brit who voted for Scottish independence last time, against the wishes of many of my family and those around me, if this happens again then I'll vote against the SNP's wishes. They said it was a once in generation vote. I made my case, as did everyone else, we all had the chance to vote on it, and my side lost. Democratic votes need the consent of the loser, not I didn't get my way so let's have another vote . B…

> a third of those voting for independence also want(ed) independence from the EU

Do you have a source for that? I only heard of the opposite, but that was mainly Reddit and HN where Europeans are usually pretty pro-EU.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#57

Post by Emma_Goldman »

madeofpalk wrote: post #14
afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

> As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around Not judging, I'm honestly curious why you didn't want them to be independent and thought that, "as a Brit" it was your position to have an opinion on Scotland's independence other than "whatever they want"? Me, Australian living in England.

Because Scotland is a part of the United Kingdom and their secession is therefore of great consequence for the rest of the union - how is that not obvious? I live in Scotland FYI.

I am undecided on independence, but clearly part of the calculus is how it effects matters of concern to the rest of the UK. Consider what is to me, the following con and pro:

(1) Scotland is more left-wing than the rest of the UK and its secession would condemn the rest of the union to indefinite right-wing government.

(2) The UK's nuclear subs would have to be restationed, but there isn't a suitable harbour anywhere in the rest of the UK, creating an opportunity for it to be scrapped.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#58

Post by synu »

brigandish wrote: post #29
afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

As a Brit who voted for Scottish independence last time, against the wishes of many of my family and those around me, if this happens again then I'll vote against the SNP's wishes. They said it was a once in generation vote. I made my case, as did everyone else, we all had the chance to vote on it, and my side lost. Democratic votes need the consent of the loser, not I didn't get my way so let's have another vote . B…

I am not British or Scottish and have no skin in the game, but what is the harm in revoting if things seem to have changed? Either things didn’t change and everyone votes the same anyway, in which case it was a waste of time but reconfirms the status quo, or things actually are different and then you know and can act on it. Is there a special history or feature in UK democracy where things are only ever voted on one time per generation for some reason?

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#59

Post by dale_glass »

brigandish wrote: post #29
afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

As a Brit who voted for Scottish independence last time, against the wishes of many of my family and those around me, if this happens again then I'll vote against the SNP's wishes. They said it was a once in generation vote. I made my case, as did everyone else, we all had the chance to vote on it, and my side lost. Democratic votes need the consent of the loser, not I didn't get my way so let's have another vote . B…

That's silly.

I have no dog in this fight, but people are allowed to change their opinion, especially as circumstances change. If what your choice was based on changed, then it's perfectly logical for your choice to change in response.

Holding up to "once in a generation" promises is stupid, though so was making such a claim to start with.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#60

Post by c16 »

easytiger wrote: post #5
c16 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In full agreement. The UK is now a joke of a country, all the best to them.

Compared with whom and on what criteria?

1. A PM who lies about attending a party, and runs with the lie until he is forced to admit it by a report and photographic evidence.

2. A PM who lied to the Queen.

3. Food poverty on the up [1]

5. £350m a week for NHS post Brexit, and yet that was a blatant lie. NHS now struggling with many staff quitting post covid and as a result of increased work load due to brexit.

The list goes on.

[1] British medical journal (https://www.bmj.com/content/bmj/347/bmj.f7157/F1.large.jpg)

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