Scotland starts renewed case for independence • Hacker News Board

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#91

Post by slightwinder » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:11 AM UTC

brigandish wrote: post #29

afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

As a Brit who voted for Scottish independence last time, against the wishes of many of my family and those around me, if this happens again then I'll vote against the SNP's wishes. They said it was a once in generation vote. I made my case, as did everyone else, we all had the chance to vote on it, and my side lost. Democratic votes need the consent of the loser, not I didn't get my way so let's have another vote . B…

> Democratic votes need the consent of the loser, not I didn't get my way so let's have another vote.

That's only true till the situation changes. If the reason for your vote disappeared, then it's legit to reevaluate your vote.

> a third of those voting for independence also want(ed) independence from the EU

Which means two third, the majority, voted for the EU? Seems like a legit reason for a new vote.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#92

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:12 AM UTC

cstross wrote: post #17

afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

For non-UK people: There are four nations in the UK (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland). But England has roughly 90% of the population of the UK. So what England votes for in an all-nations referendum, the rest of the UK gets. England voted for Brexit by a narrow-ish majority. But Scotland voted against Brexit by a huge margin -- 62/38, or approximately 3:2. Ironically, the year before the Brexit referendum…

[deleted]

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#93

Post by maweki » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:12 AM UTC

brigandish wrote: post #79

dale_glass wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's silly. I have no dog in this fight, but people are allowed to change their opinion, especially as circumstances change. If what your choice was based on changed, then it's perfectly logical for your choice to change in response. Holding up to "once in a generation" promises is stupid, though so was making such a claim to start with.

> people are allowed to change their opinion Since I've changed mine I think that is called teaching granny to suck eggs . > If what your choice was based on changed, then it's perfectly logical for your choice to change in response. I was told it was a once in a generation vote - has that changed? What constitutes a big enough change to bring a new vote? How often should these type of referenda be held? > Holding up…

Why is holding the pro-independence people to "once in a generation" okay but not holding the contra-independence people to "this is the only way to stay in the EU"?

The issue was a vote on staying in the EU as much as staying in the UK. Now these circumstances changed.

Also, the promises of further devolution weren't kept either.

Again, why are you so hung up on the (let's say) lie of "once in a generation" but not hung up on all the other lies told by the opposition?

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#94

Post by dankboys » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:12 AM UTC

smcl wrote: post #30

carnitine wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d say post-Brexit England has drifted away from the far right. The whole EDL/Britain First/UKIP sentiment has only waned massively since then. The ruling government has not come close to far right at any point.

Perhaps the fringe far-right parties have all but disintegrated, but the Tories have certainly drifted rightward and they're essentially untouchable in England in spite of ... well, everything

The Tory party of higher taxes, pride flags covering every government social media account and currently minting coins with the "progressive pride" flag? Sounds like they're about to burn down the Reichstag.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#95

Post by FinanceAnon » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:12 AM UTC

dataengineer56 wrote: post #75

lordnacho wrote: post #7

I don't see why not. The whole leaving the EU thing is a reasonable cause for independence. In general I like smaller units of government too, and it's not as if they can't cooperate with the UK in areas where they agree. I do have a horse in this race as I have Scottish family who'd have more choices with an EU passport.

Scotland wouldn't meet the criteria to join the EU - it's far too poor and small by itself. Exiting the UK would just isolate them more.

Ireland has a population of 5 million, Scotland 5.5 million.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#96

Post by ggm » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:12 AM UTC

Blackstone4 wrote: post #26

I feel like the Scotts only push hard for independence when the price of oil is high....because it balances the budget and makes independence look more attractive..

Not enough of the reserves lie in Scottish waters. If you look at the sea area mapping the line runs a lot more north by Northeast than people expect.

Scotland will make shitloads exporting hydro electricity. Probably more than oil and gas royalties

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#97

Post by adrianN » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:13 AM UTC

brigandish wrote: post #68

synu wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not British or Scottish and have no skin in the game, but what is the harm in revoting if things seem to have changed? Either things didn’t change and everyone votes the same anyway, in which case it was a waste of time but reconfirms the status quo, or things actually are different and then you know and can act on it. Is there a special history or feature in UK democracy where things are only ever voted on one…

How often do you think independence referenda should be held?

About as often as a significant part of the population wants to hold them.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#98

Post by manmal » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:13 AM UTC

inglor_cz wrote: post #44

I still can't really see the case for Scottish independence except nationalism. Scotland has been part of the UK for more than 300 years. It is so tightly integrated into its society and market that a hard border would be rather painful. We have an example of the successor states of Austria-Hungary once the empire collapsed at the end of WWI. The economic situation of businesses that suddenly faced high tariffs acces…

Joining the EU is not a good case?

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#99

Post by cyberpunk » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:13 AM UTC

brigandish wrote: post #65

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that, as they say, is why we vote the Prime Minister and parliament for life, instead of having repeated elections every 5 years.

If you think having referenda is comparable, then let's have them every 5 years too, on both Scottish independence or rejoining the the Union, and on Brexit or rejoining the EU. It's just the same.

I voted against it as I didn't want to lose my EU membership; which we were told would happen.

A few years later, an unrepresentative (to scotland) tory government takes it from us anyway because they were frightened of nigel farage and some middle englanders don't like hearing polish in their local tescos.

A lot of my friends who were remain for various reasons seem to be leaning towards independence. 'We were told it was a one time vote' isn't a good enough reason to stay pegged to this ship. The worst outcome for scotland already happened, we lost our EU citizenship, so what's the use of carrying along with the UK?

That being said, I would hope that the SNP aren't running things after independence.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#100

Post by tut-urut-utut » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:14 AM UTC

afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

I always admired Brits for allowing people from Scotland (and maybe other parts) to actually vote and decide if they wanted to stay in the same country with them.

If people all over the world had the same right, I suppose a lot of the wars could be avoided. Just imagine Ukraine allowing people in Donetsk and Lugansk to actually decide their status themselves, instead of using an army to force them into Ukraine.

Selectively applying right to independence is maybe the single worst problem in the whole world, whose solution could lead to immediate benefits to everyone.

And before someone claims otherwise, I would even go as far as the community level. If a city in Scotland vote to stay in Britain, I would allow them to become independent of Scotland and stay. In the same ways as I would allow a city in Donetsk to stay in Ukraine if they want so.

Freedom of association is the basic human right, and no majorisation should be allowed to happen. Never.