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Scotland starts renewed case for independence

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Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#71

Post by chrisseaton »

ggm wrote: post #63
chrisseaton wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> stronger far left I’m not sure there’s any significant ‘far left’ in Scotland. What groups are you thinking of? There’s also of course a very large nationalist component.

Significant is your get out clause. The SSP had six or so members and in electoral terms has been significantly more successful than any English or British equivalent except perhaps sinn fein, who were at least notionally socialist and left of labour. How far left do you want to go? Cenfuegos press was Scottish, that's a former angry brigade member.

Isn’t he dead? Hard to argue a dead person is strong!

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#73

Post by smcl »

chrisseaton wrote: post #22
cstross wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For non-UK people: There are four nations in the UK (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland). But England has roughly 90% of the population of the UK. So what England votes for in an all-nations referendum, the rest of the UK gets. England voted for Brexit by a narrow-ish majority. But Scotland voted against Brexit by a huge margin -- 62/38, or approximately 3:2. Ironically, the year before the Brexit referendum…

> stronger far left I’m not sure there’s any significant ‘far left’ in Scotland. What groups are you thinking of? There’s also of course a very large nationalist component.

Firstly I'd agree that there's not a significant far left political party in Scotland (Scottish Greens, perhaps?) but it is still more left-leaning overall. But re the "nationalist" bit - that word is overloaded. So the word usually means a couple of things:

1. "far-right beliefs that centre on religious and ethnic hatred"

2. or, "a desire to become an independent nation"

In this case when people say the SNP is nationalist it's the second - their policy is that Scotland should be an independent country. For what it's worth they seem to have a strong pro-immigration stance[0] and a belief in racial equality[1], which are usually things type #1 nationalists are heavily against - so take from that what you will.

[0] - https://www.snp.org/policies/pb-what-is-the-snp-s-policy-on-...

[1] - https://www.snp.org/policies/pb-what-actions-are-the-snp-tak...

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#74

Post by dataengineer56 »

orra wrote: post #27
afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

> …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah? As you know, UK asylum policy is horrific at the moment. The UK is sending asylum seekers to Rwanda, copying Australia's repugnant offshore policy. I hope we (Scotland) do better. In 2014, the independence white paper had a points based immigration policy. I want a much more open immigration policy this time round. Scotland is enriched by migra…

Scotland doesn't have England's immigration problems because immigrants generally don't want to go to Scotland. It's easy to be virtuous when the problem doesn't affect you.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#75

Post by dataengineer56 »

lordnacho wrote: post #7

I don't see why not. The whole leaving the EU thing is a reasonable cause for independence. In general I like smaller units of government too, and it's not as if they can't cooperate with the UK in areas where they agree. I do have a horse in this race as I have Scottish family who'd have more choices with an EU passport.

Scotland wouldn't meet the criteria to join the EU - it's far too poor and small by itself. Exiting the UK would just isolate them more.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#76

Post by ggm »

eyko wrote: post #40
afavour wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believed that the UK is better off as a united country. Not all that different from the logic for the UK staying in the EU: larger economic markets help everyone. A union of likeminded nations is better then isolation. I also have both English and Scottish relatives (one reason I consider myself a “Brit”) so you could say the concept plays into my self image. > it was your position to have an opinion I suppose I co…

Scotland can be independent _and_ be in the same economic market (ignoring UK and Spain willing to veto Scotland reentering EU out of spite / own political motives).

Spain would have a different perspective post brexit: one in the eye for Gibraltar.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#77

Post by eushebdbsh »

cstross wrote: post #51
smcl wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the fringe far-right parties have all but disintegrated, but the Tories have certainly drifted rightward and they're essentially untouchable in England in spite of ... well, everything

That's my point. UKIP and BXP disintegrated because their more competent members colonized the Conservative Party, which is now much more radical and far-right than it was under Cameron. The only surviving cabinet minister from Cameron's era (2010-2016) is Michael Gove. The rest are all new faces with far right credentials and a commitment to the hardest of hard Brexits.

so they haven't drifted away from the right. the centre has moved right

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#78

Post by ggm »

madeofpalk wrote: post #69
Angostura wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As another Brit, a Londoner, who didn't want Scotland to go. 1. Because I enjoy living in a country that has the Scots in it - without Scotland the country would be diminished, less interesting and more insular. 2. Generally, I think fracturing is a bad thing. I wanted to stay in the EU for similar reasons. This isn't to say that I don't think that Scots should have self determination, just that I would be sad if the…

Well, I have always joked that Sydney should just succeed and become it's own city-state...

NZ was offered statehood and wisely declined. Our loss. Treaty now!

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#79

Post by brigandish »

dale_glass wrote: post #59
brigandish wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Brit who voted for Scottish independence last time, against the wishes of many of my family and those around me, if this happens again then I'll vote against the SNP's wishes. They said it was a once in generation vote. I made my case, as did everyone else, we all had the chance to vote on it, and my side lost. Democratic votes need the consent of the loser, not I didn't get my way so let's have another vote . B…

That's silly. I have no dog in this fight, but people are allowed to change their opinion, especially as circumstances change. If what your choice was based on changed, then it's perfectly logical for your choice to change in response. Holding up to "once in a generation" promises is stupid, though so was making such a claim to start with.

> people are allowed to change their opinion

Since I've changed mine I think that is called teaching granny to suck eggs.

> If what your choice was based on changed, then it's perfectly logical for your choice to change in response.

I was told it was a once in a generation vote - has that changed? What constitutes a big enough change to bring a new vote? How often should these type of referenda be held?

> Holding up to "once in a generation" promises is stupid, though so was making such a claim to start with.

Yes, you must forgive me for thinking that principles and promises are worth sticking to. I should be as cynical as politicians and simply go by what is convenient, right?

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#80

Post by [deleted] »

dale_glass wrote: post #59
brigandish wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Brit who voted for Scottish independence last time, against the wishes of many of my family and those around me, if this happens again then I'll vote against the SNP's wishes. They said it was a once in generation vote. I made my case, as did everyone else, we all had the chance to vote on it, and my side lost. Democratic votes need the consent of the loser, not I didn't get my way so let's have another vote . B…

That's silly. I have no dog in this fight, but people are allowed to change their opinion, especially as circumstances change. If what your choice was based on changed, then it's perfectly logical for your choice to change in response. Holding up to "once in a generation" promises is stupid, though so was making such a claim to start with.

[deleted]
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