Scotland starts renewed case for independence • Hacker News Board

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#111

Post by orra » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:15 AM UTC

everfrustrated wrote: post #66

orra wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah? As you know, UK asylum policy is horrific at the moment. The UK is sending asylum seekers to Rwanda, copying Australia's repugnant offshore policy. I hope we (Scotland) do better. In 2014, the independence white paper had a points based immigration policy. I want a much more open immigration policy this time round. Scotland is enriched by migra…

There is a big difference between people legally arriving under a points system and people rowing themselves over to live illegally.

> people rowing themselves over to live illegally.

Complete misdirection. It's lawful for asylum seekers to arrive by otherwise-unlawful transport. It'd be better if they didn't have to, of course.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#112

Post by cygx » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:15 AM UTC

brigandish wrote: post #79

dale_glass wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's silly. I have no dog in this fight, but people are allowed to change their opinion, especially as circumstances change. If what your choice was based on changed, then it's perfectly logical for your choice to change in response. Holding up to "once in a generation" promises is stupid, though so was making such a claim to start with.

> people are allowed to change their opinion Since I've changed mine I think that is called teaching granny to suck eggs . > If what your choice was based on changed, then it's perfectly logical for your choice to change in response. I was told it was a once in a generation vote - has that changed? What constitutes a big enough change to bring a new vote? How often should these type of referenda be held? > Holding up…

What constitutes a big enough change to bring a new vote?

Leaving the EU?

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#113

Post by carnitine » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:16 AM UTC

cstross wrote: post #51

smcl wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the fringe far-right parties have all but disintegrated, but the Tories have certainly drifted rightward and they're essentially untouchable in England in spite of ... well, everything

That's my point. UKIP and BXP disintegrated because their more competent members colonized the Conservative Party, which is now much more radical and far-right than it was under Cameron. The only surviving cabinet minister from Cameron's era (2010-2016) is Michael Gove. The rest are all new faces with far right credentials and a commitment to the hardest of hard Brexits.

Who exactly in the cabinet is far right? Truss, Sunak, Javid, Raab and the rest hardly come across as the right wing mob. Rees-Mogg is the only one who maybe comes remotely close and he’s got one of the most minor positions.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#114

Post by Milner08 » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:16 AM UTC

espadrine wrote: post #82

chillydawg wrote: post #42

One quite important issue is the border. English and Scottish people will almost certainly never tolerate any kind of friction at that border. We've been moving across it seamlessly for centuries, families are mixed, businesses straddle the border, etc. If the Northern Ireland debacle has shown us anything, it's if Scotland were to leave and then join the EU that border would become an absolute political nightmare. T…

Another way to look at the Northern Ireland precedent, is that a compromise was found. People could argue that the same text can be reused.

The text they are currently trying to rip up against the will of the EU? The only viable solution is that the UK rejoins the EU or becomes subservient to it... but neither will happen anytime soon.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#115

Post by veltas » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:16 AM UTC

easytiger wrote: post #13

ivolimmen wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Dutch and EU citizen I fully understand their motivation. I also regretted to see England leave the EU.

Will you feel the same way when the EU seeks the end of veto powers (as is currently happening)? https://timesofmalta.com/articles/view/european-parliament-a...

Don't know why this was downvoted into oblivion. Seems like the point adds to conversation, isn't rude, ignorant, etc. Whether or not you might agree with them.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#116

Post by Milner08 » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:17 AM UTC

alignItems wrote: post #102

I don’t get how the Scottish independence movement can be anti-Brexit, which was about the UK wanting more independence and self-governance. If that’s what they’re after, why would they want to join the EU after leaving the UK?

Because the line about Brexit being about independence was stupid. The UK enforces far more control over Scotland than the EU ever did.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#117

Post by Gordonjcp » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:17 AM UTC

brigandish wrote: post #65

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that, as they say, is why we vote the Prime Minister and parliament for life, instead of having repeated elections every 5 years.

If you think having referenda is comparable, then let's have them every 5 years too, on both Scottish independence or rejoining the the Union, and on Brexit or rejoining the EU. It's just the same.

> If you think having referenda is comparable, then let's have them every 5 years too, on both Scottish independence or rejoining the the Union, and on Brexit or rejoining the EU.

Yes, absolutely. Once Scotland is independent we absolutely should keep checking to see if everyone thinks it's a good idea.

If the majority votes to rejoin the rest of the UK politically, we should do that.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#118

Post by 4dregress » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:17 AM UTC

Etheryte wrote: post #86

4dregress wrote: post #23

I don't see it happening, we've been through far too much in the last 10 years to inflict even more damage. I've asked this question many times but how is it feasible for Scotland to become Independent: 1. They currently don't meet the requirements to join the EU. Are they going to skip the current waiting list? 2. How will they create a military? 3. Still a big question mark over currency and Scotland's debt. 4. Own…

Perhaps I simply don't understand what you mean, but none of those questions seem very complex? For 1-3, see any Baltic states in the early 90s who are now a part of the EU. Just because you don't meet the requirements to join right away doesn't mean you can't do it over time. As for 4, naturally Scotland would own its own natural resources, what's ambiguous about that?

Unfortunately it's not the 90's and a lot of things have changed in geopolitics. France is quite against expansion and there are a lot of questions around what to do with Ukraine. Scotland wanting to join as an unproven independent is really unlikely.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2020/02/05/what-would-it-...

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#119

Post by camjw » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:17 AM UTC

cstross wrote: post #51

smcl wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the fringe far-right parties have all but disintegrated, but the Tories have certainly drifted rightward and they're essentially untouchable in England in spite of ... well, everything

That's my point. UKIP and BXP disintegrated because their more competent members colonized the Conservative Party, which is now much more radical and far-right than it was under Cameron. The only surviving cabinet minister from Cameron's era (2010-2016) is Michael Gove. The rest are all new faces with far right credentials and a commitment to the hardest of hard Brexits.

Notwithstanding the bizarre "far right credentials" point:

- Liz Truss (current Foreign Secretary) was SoS for DEFRA under David Cameron.

- Sajid Javid (current Health SoS) was BEIS SoS under David Cameron.

- Grant Shapps (current Transport SoS) was Minister for Housing under David Cameron and later party chairman.

- Brandon Lewis (current SoS for Northern Ireland) was Minister for Housing under DC.

- Ben Wallace (clearly ultra right wing (/s), and SoS for Defence), Minister for Northern Ireland under DC.

I don't think this is an exhausive list, these are just the SoSs I can think of off the top of my head. Your statement is just so untrue it just makes me think you don't know much about UK politics and don't really care enough to even google your "facts".

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#120

Post by brigandish » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:18 AM UTC

maweki wrote: post #93

brigandish wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people are allowed to change their opinion Since I've changed mine I think that is called teaching granny to suck eggs . > If what your choice was based on changed, then it's perfectly logical for your choice to change in response. I was told it was a once in a generation vote - has that changed? What constitutes a big enough change to bring a new vote? How often should these type of referenda be held? > Holding up…

Why is holding the pro-independence people to "once in a generation" okay but not holding the contra-independence people to "this is the only way to stay in the EU"? The issue was a vote on staying in the EU as much as staying in the UK. Now these circumstances changed. Also, the promises of further devolution weren't kept either. Again, why are you so hung up on the (let's say) lie of "once in a generation" but not…

> The issue was a vote on staying in the EU as much as staying in the UK

I don't even remember it coming up but if it means a lot to you then I can see you'd be aggravated, but how would it obviate the once in a generation pledge? Scotland can't join the EU if it goes independent anyway, the vote to remain really was the only practical way to stay in the EU.