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Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

theguardian.com

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Re: Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

#61

Post by kube-system »

manicdee wrote: post #36
itsoktocry wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wonder how many people turn on traditional cruise control and then crash due to neglectful driving. That's what we should be comparing Tesla Autopilot against, we should compare it against the status quo. This is so disingenuous. Go on YouTube and search for people "self-driving" in their Teslas, then do the same for people doing anything remotely the same with standard cruise control. Tesla and its fanatics want…

Where is Tesla claiming that Autopilot is self-driving?

For starters, have you read the first sentence on https://www.tesla.com/autopilot ?

> Tesla cars come standard with advanced hardware capable of providing Autopilot features, and full self-driving capabilities—through software updates designed to improve functionality over time.

And this is the stuff that is filtered through their communications staff; the stuff Musk has said is even more egregious.

Re: Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

#62

Post by vorpalhex »

warning26 wrote: post #43
concinds wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fundamental problem is that Tesla's Autopilot is defective. It has repeatedly steered people into highway barriers, and sometimes has no clue which lane it's in or where it's going. See the opening of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMvdI8nSAJE An Apple employee was killed by his Tesla, which always veered into a highway barrier after an OTA update (he was distracted one day and didn't prevent the cra…

What is the benefit of an auto-drive function if you have to pay constant attention to it? Essentially, autopilot's main value proposition is that you don't need to pay attention to it -- and that's what makes it so dangerous.

The wife got a new car - not a Tesla - that has several smart cruise control features.

She actually ended up disabling some of them. She explained that they "made driving too easy" and it was too hard for her to keep her attention on the road while using them.

Re: Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

#63

Post by mupuff1234 »

jstream67 wrote: post #55
mupuff1234 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they appointed a person who cares about safety to be a safety advisor? How dare they.

Here are some quotes from the article for you. The concern is not that she cares about safety, but that she is very strongly biased against Tesla and has a financial interest in promoting other companies. "The same goes for her stance regarding CEO Elon Musk. In March 2020, for example, Dr. Cummings seemingly joked about needing someone to stop her from punching Elon Musk in the face. " "It should be noted that Dr. C…

> has not shared if she would be leaving her post

Kinda looks like she did:

https://www.automotiveworld.com/news-releases/veoneer-resign...

Re: Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

#64

Post by kube-system »

throwaway320923 wrote: post #14
Manuel_D wrote: post #2

I wonder how many people turn on traditional cruise control and then crash due to neglectful driving. That's what we should be comparing Tesla Autopilot against, we should compare it against the status quo.

It's a good question, and I'm dismayed to see the various knee-jerk reactions to it. Seems to get caught up in the pro/anti-Tesla/Musk/blah noise. No, thank you. Here's the thing - people get in accidents all the time when assistance features like ABS, lane keeping, traction control, TACC, good-old-fashioned dumb cruise control, etc. are actively altering the vehicle's performance and behavior. So when we consider Te…

The difference between Tesla's system and driver assistance features that other automakers have, is that Tesla's system encourages a lower level of driver engagement, and it will initiate larger inputs. If those inputs are not what the driver is expecting, a driver in a Tesla may have to correct a more severe failure mode and they may have to do so after being mentally disengaged for a longer period.

Re: Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

#65

Post by toomuchtodo »

ra7 wrote: post #20
toomuchtodo wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other automaker AEB (automatic emergency braking) systems have the same stationary object detection deficiency and specifically indicate that the system can fail under these circumstances [1]. Tesla gets called out because their autosteer is so good at lane keeping, comparatively speaking. Their new high resolution radar [2] (Phoenix) they’ve registered with the FCC, as well as a retrofit campaign across the fleet, w…

> Their new high resolution radar [2] (Phoenix) they’ve registered with the FCC, as well as a retrofit campaign across the fleet, will likely resolve this gap. Is a retrofit confirmed or is it just your assumption? They even sold hundreds of thousands of "vision only" cars (including mine) with Musk and Karpathy claiming radar is useless for them. Funny how they've walked it back with this new radar news.

Strong assumption NHTSA will issue a recall due to the severity of the issue and Tesla offers up sensor fusion as the fix.

Tesla Vision was a successful strategy to keep shipping units during supply chain issues (inability to source radar units), but it is clearly not sustainable based on the Vision codebase maturity reflected by operational performance.

Re: Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

#66

Post by ActorNightly »

malcolmgreaves wrote: post #60

UX and interfaces are important. If it's marketed and described as "autopilot" or "full self driving," then a reasonable person expects it to automatically pilot the vehicle I'm normal driving situations. Tesla is unfortunately trapped in a all too common story of AI development: over-hype and under-deliver.

There are plenty of warnings about "keeping hands on the wheel" and "full attentiveness". Of course people are going to ignore this, just like many people chose to ignore the effects of alcohol and drive.

Re: Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

#67

Post by InitialLastName »

gkop wrote: post #19
polski-g wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla has sold more self driving cars than all other manufacturers combined. Of course you would hear more about Tesla.

0 > 0*n == false

To be fair, they didn't say Tesla has delivered any self-driving cars. Everyone knows a huckster is at their happiest with an internet horde making excuses for their incapacity to fulfill their promises.

Re: Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

#68

Post by Manuel_D »

PKop wrote: post #33
Manuel_D wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this actually a problem with tesla marketing? Or is it a problem with people being dumb? An aircraft autopilot will happily fly you straight into a mountain. It just holds altitude and bearing. Everyone I know with a Tesla exclusively uses autopilot on the highway in between exits. I'm pretty baffled as to how some people think it's fully autonomous driving, and I'm dubious as to how culpable Tesla is for that ign…

It's both, and unless you have a solution to eliminating stupid people, then the tech needs to be regulated out of the market so innocent people don't get killed on the roads due to this stupidity.

There's only so much a company can do to protect against user error. People stick their fingers down a running drain garbage disposal. People will look down the barrel of a loaded gun and pull the trigger. The question is not "has anyone hurt themselves?", the question is "does the product have reasonable safety precautions?"

Re: Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

#69

Post by jstream67 »

kube-system wrote: post #64
throwaway320923 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a good question, and I'm dismayed to see the various knee-jerk reactions to it. Seems to get caught up in the pro/anti-Tesla/Musk/blah noise. No, thank you. Here's the thing - people get in accidents all the time when assistance features like ABS, lane keeping, traction control, TACC, good-old-fashioned dumb cruise control, etc. are actively altering the vehicle's performance and behavior. So when we consider Te…

The difference between Tesla's system and driver assistance features that other automakers have, is that Tesla's system encourages a lower level of driver engagement, and it will initiate larger inputs. If those inputs are not what the driver is expecting, a driver in a Tesla may have to correct a more severe failure mode and they may have to do so after being mentally disengaged for a longer period.

From watching youtube videos I got the impression that the Ford 'Blue Cruise' does not require the hands to be on the wheel.

I haven't used the Ford system but I have used the Tesla system and it requires you to move the wheel at a pretty annoyingly and regular frequency to remain in autopilot mode. I believe the cabin camera can also detect when you are on your phone or looking away - but i'm not sure if this is rolled out to non-FSD cars.

I think the frequency that you have to prove you are paying attention is about every 30 seconds

Re: Tesla investigation deepens after more than a dozen US ‘Autopilot’ crashes

#70

Post by ActorNightly »

PKop wrote: post #33
Manuel_D wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this actually a problem with tesla marketing? Or is it a problem with people being dumb? An aircraft autopilot will happily fly you straight into a mountain. It just holds altitude and bearing. Everyone I know with a Tesla exclusively uses autopilot on the highway in between exits. I'm pretty baffled as to how some people think it's fully autonomous driving, and I'm dubious as to how culpable Tesla is for that ign…

It's both, and unless you have a solution to eliminating stupid people, then the tech needs to be regulated out of the market so innocent people don't get killed on the roads due to this stupidity.

Regulated by whom..... the people who have absolutely zero clue about how even the basic technology works, and are only interested in getting reelected?

Its funny how people rightfully criticize the government and laugh at videos of senator grilling the CEOs of Facebook or Google with stupid questions, but then as soon as a company does something that they don't like, they somehow expect those people to get their shit together and sensibly regulate something as nuanced as autopilot?

For technology to get better, it needs to be stress tested - in this case that means accidents and people dying. Which is pretty much on par with development of car technology since its origin. The warnings on autopilot are there. If you don't want to take the risk, don't use it.

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