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EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

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Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#941

Post by _ea1k »

nybble41 wrote: post #467
_ea1k wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Tesla has a simple passthrough adapter for CCS1. Other adapters are also possible.

Some adapters are more problematic than others. For example if the charger and the vehicle both expect the other side to initiate the charging process and withhold power until some voltage is detected then the adapter may need its own independent power supply to jump-start the charging process. Locks are another problem—some combinations would require the adapter to provide powered locking mechanisms for both sides.…

That's definitely true. I've used the Tesla chademo adapter and it was a beast. Its heavy, awkward, and the latching mechanism is difficult to fully engage.

The Tesla passive solution to the locking mechanism on their CCS1 passive adapter is as brilliant as it is simple. Just a little springloaded bar that locks the cable onto the adapter if and only if the adapter is inserted into the car. Then the car uses its regular adapter. This works well with CCS1 locking.

The other end of the spectrum are things like the setec adapter or the evhub adapter. Both of those don't have vehicle side locking with CCS1, which is a violation and a potential hazard.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#942

Post by _ea1k »

dreamcompiler wrote: post #716
_ea1k wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Tesla has a simple passthrough adapter for CCS1. Other adapters are also possible.

I presume you're talking about the J1772/CCS1 adapter that comes for free with every Tesla. This adapter is occasionally handy but it does not allow fast ("super") DC charging. It's strictly a Level 2 AC adapter, which means it takes a few hours to charge your car fully. The CCS adapter that allows you to supercharge a Tesla at non-Tesla DC superchargers is not (yet) available in the US [0]. Tesla does make them and…

There is no combined J1772/CCS1 adapter. There are separate passive J1772 and CCS1 adapters, though. The J1772 adapter is obviously really small and easy to use.

I was referring to the CCS adapter that is currently available in South Korea. Its a little heavier, but its also fairly easy to use (well, as easy as CCS usually is). It has become really easy to import them too, thanks to Harumio and other importers. The speeds are 150+kw, and close to 200kw on the newer Model S/X[1]. I expect that official availability will happen sometime this year, but if it doesn't, then presumably a third party will make a suitable passive adapter. Its a ridiculously simple device.

[1] I know officially S/X isn't even supported, but it has been demonstrated to work. Higher speeds are because of the newer 450V battery pack.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#943

Post by paulmd »

layer8 wrote: post #834
paulmd wrote: post #777

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's always interesting to me that people ignore the ecological impact of cables. If you break four cables over the life of the phone from plugging/unplugging, and that results in 2 or 3 additional Amazon Prime trips to deliver your cables, how does that compare in terms of environmental impact to wasting 5 additional watts for the 1 hour a day you charge your phone? (and don't tell me everybody uses Amazon Prime day…

I personally never had a charging cable break in ~12 years, owning multiple mobile devices in parallel, so in my experience that isn’t a relevant consideration. That aside, I’m more concerned with the accelerated decrease in battery life that I experienced first-hand with MagSafe charging. I stopped using it because of that.

I guess I did say plugging/unplugging, but certain types of cables are very prone to kinking. I've broken a number of cables if they get a loop and then you set something heavy on them, or if you lay on them in bed, etc. In the car I go through a 3.5mm cable and a usb cable every couple years as well, for largely the same reasons - they get tugged or bumped or something set on them and they break. It's especially likely with the crappy cheap cables that most people buy - I've had a lot better luck since switching to mostly braided cables, I think the sheath gives it a bit more strength.

Failures due to "user error" are still failures that induce cable replacement, and a cable that you interact with less (because it's running to a fixed wireless charger stand/pad) is less likely to have user error failure modes like that. Wireless connection or wireless charging (built into the car, f.ex) removes these modes entirely - you can't break an aux cable that doesn't exist.

You can't just assume "nobody ever breaks a cable" as being a realistic proposition when looking at the lifecycle of these products - I'm not sure I believe you in the first place that you've never broken a cable in 12 years but that's certainly not realistic for the population as a whole.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#944

Post by MobiusHorizons »

tomp wrote: post #751
robonerd wrote: post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why "What about innovation?" is taken seriously as an argument anyway. USB-C is more than adequate, we could coast with it for the next hundred years. Nobody is kept up at night by the lack of innovation in AC power plugs, the standards countries have settled on today, while not all equivalent, are all generally satisfactory in practice. Problem solved; stop fixing that which ain't broke and move on to ot…

This argument would sound less hollow if there weren’t two existing superior (from a user experience perspective) alternatives already on the market. Apple’s Lightning (thinner than USB-C) and MagSafe (safer than USB-C for charging laptops… so glad Apple is transitioning back to it for M2 Airs)

Lightning is a decent cable technology from a form factor position, but it has several technology drawbacks. First each lightning device (including cables) have to pay a nontrivial royalty to apple bringing up the minimum cost of accessories. Secondly the standard is limited to relatively low power and data rates.

Notice also that nothing prevents apple from additionally shipping MagSafe on their laptops, the device just needs to be usable with a type-C charger.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#945

Post by ecnahc515 »

bloppe wrote: post #485

A lot of people saying "USB-C cables aren't even compatible with each other!" (Nintendo switch etc.) Guess what: that's exactly the problem this regulation is intended to solve. Fake USB-C cables like Nintendo's that have the right shape but do not adhere to spec should gradually disappear along with lightning cables. The regulation actually says that cables can no longer be bundled with the devices themselves, so Ni…

> and you would just buy a real one to work with all your devices.

Except that could kill your Nintendo switch, and it's not like Nintendo is going to change how their hardware works on something that's already been released to the masses.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#946

Post by paulmd »

detuur wrote: post #807
tomp wrote: post #751

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument would sound less hollow if there weren’t two existing superior (from a user experience perspective) alternatives already on the market. Apple’s Lightning (thinner than USB-C) and MagSafe (safer than USB-C for charging laptops… so glad Apple is transitioning back to it for M2 Airs)

Lightning only ever managed to coast by because of its slim form-factor and because Apple mandated its use. It's capable of USB2.0 at most (480Mbps), whereas USB-C can do 20Gbps today and 40Gbps when using Thunderbolt. MagSafe on phones is a total joke, and MagSafe on laptops exists _alongside_ USB-C charging.

> It's capable of USB2.0 at most (480Mbps),

the lightning connector itself is capable of USB 3.0 speeds, apple just keeps the iphone line (or the cables?) at usb 2.0 spec. The ipad pro can reach full speed.

https://apple.fandom.com/wiki/Lightning_to_USB_3_Camera_Adap...

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#947

Post by strbean »

ecnahc515 wrote: post #945
bloppe wrote: post #485

A lot of people saying "USB-C cables aren't even compatible with each other!" (Nintendo switch etc.) Guess what: that's exactly the problem this regulation is intended to solve. Fake USB-C cables like Nintendo's that have the right shape but do not adhere to spec should gradually disappear along with lightning cables. The regulation actually says that cables can no longer be bundled with the devices themselves, so Ni…

> and you would just buy a real one to work with all your devices. Except that could kill your Nintendo switch, and it's not like Nintendo is going to change how their hardware works on something that's already been released to the masses.

> Except that could kill your Nintendo switch

That's strictly an issue of atrocious hardware design in the switch and nothing else.

>[...] it's not like Nintendo is going to change how their hardware works on something that's already been released to the masses.

They will if they want to continue selling them in the EU after the deadline.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#948

Post by wbsss4412 »

AlchemistCamp wrote: post #914
elif wrote: post #829

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contrarily, if they were able to pass that standard quickly, it would stand to reason that they could also pass a USB-C standard quickly. USB-C becoming standardized for phones will not slow the advancement of USB specs, and if the physical form factor becomes a constraint somehow, they will devise a better one and will standardize it likewise, even if consumer model phones can't ship with them from day 0. A great ex…

The Tesla spec still is superior. Europeans just don't get its benefits anymore. The CCS mandate was mostly protectionism and I strongly doubt it would have happened if Tesla were headquartered in Germany.

How is it mostly protectionism?

There are currently three different fast charging standards, Tesla’s, CCS, and Chademo, and a vast need for improvements in charging infrastructure. If you don’t have a common standard, you end up with a fragmented network that caps everyone’s utility. Imagine if ICE cars could only get gas from certain types of stations, it’s madness.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#949

Post by robonerd »

drtjsw4ju wrote: post #859
robonerd wrote: post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why "What about innovation?" is taken seriously as an argument anyway. USB-C is more than adequate, we could coast with it for the next hundred years. Nobody is kept up at night by the lack of innovation in AC power plugs, the standards countries have settled on today, while not all equivalent, are all generally satisfactory in practice. Problem solved; stop fixing that which ain't broke and move on to ot…

What a shock, the European argument is "But why do you need so much innovation?" Pretty much summarizes their place in the world in a nutshell.

Lmfao, I've never been outside America or Canada. I'll take you calling me European as a compliment though.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#950

Post by simion314 »

theptip wrote: post #692
simion314 wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By definition it is now harder to innovate on charging cables simply because you can’t try something new. Sure you can, because you have to support the standard but Apple could invent HyperSuperCoolRoundedCornerCharger and put it as an alternative, if it charges hyper super faster then the standard the customers will prefer it and buy the super expensive platinum Apple Genuine DRM protected charger and Apple makes…

To be clear, if USB-C charging is mandatory, you cannot have an alternative charging port, unless you want to have multiple ports on your device, which is (I think obviously) absurd. By requiring USB-C, you forbid other port types from being used. So this regulation is forbidding Apple from using their Lightning connector, and also forbidding any other vendor from introducing an alternative. Without revision it presu…

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