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EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

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Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#801

Post by ajford »

tediousdemise wrote: post #545
bloppe wrote: post #485

A lot of people saying "USB-C cables aren't even compatible with each other!" (Nintendo switch etc.) Guess what: that's exactly the problem this regulation is intended to solve. Fake USB-C cables like Nintendo's that have the right shape but do not adhere to spec should gradually disappear along with lightning cables. The regulation actually says that cables can no longer be bundled with the devices themselves, so Ni…

It's kind of sad to me that Apple doesn't make Lightning an open standard. In all my years, I haven't had a single Lightning connector fail on me. The solid metal where the contacts reside is just too robust to wear out or get damaged (unless you somehow step on it the right way or let it corrode). USB-C connectors, on the other hand, seems to loosen after a rather small number mates and de-mates, leading people to u…

In the three years my spouse has had an Apple device, I've had two first-party cables fray and wear out at the connector, the lightning port get fouled up with lint and require cleaning, and I think three third-party cables stop working at all with no obvious damage.

In the same time, I've only had two usb-c cables fail on me, both third-party.

I did have three other usb-c cables destroyed by careless children breaking the usb-a side off at the charger (all three plugged into a knee-height automotive charger in the back seat area), but that's less of a failure of the cable and more a testament to that plucky Anker auto charger that's still going fine.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#802

Post by groby_b »

alerighi wrote: post #760
bloppe wrote: post #485

A lot of people saying "USB-C cables aren't even compatible with each other!" (Nintendo switch etc.) Guess what: that's exactly the problem this regulation is intended to solve. Fake USB-C cables like Nintendo's that have the right shape but do not adhere to spec should gradually disappear along with lightning cables. The regulation actually says that cables can no longer be bundled with the devices themselves, so Ni…

I think this is a stupid thing. Repurposing a commonly used connector for other things to reuse cheap connectors and cables is something that is usually done in the electronic industry (e.g. my oscilloscope use an HDMI socket for the logic analyzer input, you have plenty of lines and the connector is cheap and good). It's not uncommon to design a board and use type-C only for power (5V input, without the circuitry to…

> Of course not, since the first one costs a couple of dollars, the second one tens of dollars,

Of course yes.

If the industry was stupid enough to put all of this behind a single plug, then single cable it is. Because pretty much every consumer who has more than one USB3/C cable is dead tired of "oh. This combo doesn't work, let me root for the other cables"

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#803

Post by majewsky »

chroma wrote: post #779
bonzini wrote: post #750

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not just the time to charge a single car but the capacity in cars/hour. First, if a car takes five times longer to charge, you need a lot more space to cover the needs for peak days. This may not be a problem on highways (or in the US) but space in Europe is much more limited. Second, a smallish 6-pump filling station serves 150-200 cars per hour. An equivalent charging station would need 12-15 MW whic…

It's hard to calculate how many charging stations will be needed. Most EV owners plug their cars in at home and wake up every day with a full charge. They only use charging stations for road trips. Also charging stations can be installed in far more places than gas stations. There are no hazardous fumes or massive fire risks. They don't require nearly as much maintenance or staff. For these reasons it's common to see…

In fact, I've already seen some employers list charging-at-work as a perk on their job offers.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#804

Post by thaumasiotes »

hwbehrens wrote: post #733
notJim wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very strange to read this comment on article about USB, which has been developed by committee from the beginning. To me it seems quite innovative, and arguably disruptive to have a single standard for all these things. Maybe USB doesn't clear your personal bar, but then why worry about this at all?

I can't be sure, but my interpretation of the parent's comment is that the USB-IF would never have thought to work on USB-C at all until Lightning's release two years earlier. The whole forehead-slapping moment of cables that didn't need to be flipped was a pretty big divergence from the USB-A, -B, mini B, micro B, etc. that has prevailed previously. The kernel of the argument being, Apple's "innovation" by rejecting…

> The whole forehead-slapping moment of cables that didn't need to be flipped was a pretty big divergence from the USB-A, -B, mini B, micro B, etc. that has prevailed previously.

It's weird; cable orientation was (and still is) a big problem with USB-A, but not because having to deal with orientation is a problem that needs to be solved. Orientation is not a problem, at all, with USB-B, mini-B, or micro-B. The own goal in USB-A was delivering a connnector that is sensitive to orientation at the same time that it's visually symmetrical. There was no need to make the connector insensitive to orientation. It would have made at least as much sense to make the asymmetry visible, the way every other connector does.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#805

Post by troad »

krzyk wrote: post #707
kube-system wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny, because all of North America uses the NEMA standard and the EU uses a bunch of different plugs.

No, EU uses a single plug, it is called "Type C" (no, not USB-C). What you might find in some poorer regions in EU is old plugs that were there pre-EU, or prestandardization. I can say that, because Brexit happened, I have no clue what those were thinking when designing their own gigantic plug.

This is just not true. Denmark and Italy use their own plugs; Ireland, Malta, and Cyprus use the British plug; and the heart of the EU is divided between French-style and Schuko plugs. (Switzerland, though outside the EU, also uses its own plugs.)

As I understand it, EU moves to standardise plugs failed in the 90s.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#807

Post by detuur »

tomp wrote: post #751
robonerd wrote: post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why "What about innovation?" is taken seriously as an argument anyway. USB-C is more than adequate, we could coast with it for the next hundred years. Nobody is kept up at night by the lack of innovation in AC power plugs, the standards countries have settled on today, while not all equivalent, are all generally satisfactory in practice. Problem solved; stop fixing that which ain't broke and move on to ot…

This argument would sound less hollow if there weren’t two existing superior (from a user experience perspective) alternatives already on the market. Apple’s Lightning (thinner than USB-C) and MagSafe (safer than USB-C for charging laptops… so glad Apple is transitioning back to it for M2 Airs)

Lightning only ever managed to coast by because of its slim form-factor and because Apple mandated its use. It's capable of USB2.0 at most (480Mbps), whereas USB-C can do 20Gbps today and 40Gbps when using Thunderbolt.

MagSafe on phones is a total joke, and MagSafe on laptops exists _alongside_ USB-C charging.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#808

Post by qwerty456127 »

rektide wrote: post #508
qwerty456127 wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course, the first thing that comes to mind is what happens if better solutions are found. Will EU block innovation? The EU has no problem with updating to improved standards. First there was USB-Mini-B, then USB-Micro-B, now USB-C. I would expect some different connector to replace it in a about a decade and 100% wireless in two decades roughly.

Mini-B (2000) had serious reliability problems, and would often damage the device rather than the cable. Micro-B (2007) was a pretty smart & necessary response. USB-C (2014) elegantly encompassed the additional high-speed data-connectivity that the hideous huge SuperSpeed USB Micro-B (2008) tacked on, & added significant future-proofing/adaptability (alt-modes). I have a hard time imagining much advantage beyond USB-…

I would bet the industry will invent something to replace it anyway, even if there's no good reason for the change. Or maybe there will be some fundamental leap making 80 Gbps as irrelevant as 9600 bps are today.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#809

Post by Vespasian »

chroma wrote: post #767
ARandumGuy wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, the Tesla connector is smaller, and a little sleeker. But from a functionality perspective, the plug types are basically identical. Both allow AC standard charging and DC fast charging. Electric cables aren't that complicated.

Compared to CCS, Tesla made a ton of smart decisions with their charging setup: - All Teslas have their charging ports at the rear left side. This means that charging cables can be very short. Longer cables would cause tangles, cost more, and be harder to cool. - Tesla's protocol has built-in payment. You plug in and charge. With CCS it varies. Sometimes you use a credit card. Sometimes you download a mobile app and…

Several of your points don't have anything to do with CSS and are simply costs of having multiple competing brands on the markets who need to use the same infrastructure (real estate is a very limited resource in many areas).

- Older X/S were never that numerous and shouldn't hold up the vast majority of the population. First movers disadvantage if you like.

- Moving vehicles across the Atlantic is also a tiny tiny use case and already difficult as is.

Re: EU reaches deal to make USB-C a common charger for most electronic devices

#810

Post by danhor »

alerighi wrote: post #760
bloppe wrote: post #485

A lot of people saying "USB-C cables aren't even compatible with each other!" (Nintendo switch etc.) Guess what: that's exactly the problem this regulation is intended to solve. Fake USB-C cables like Nintendo's that have the right shape but do not adhere to spec should gradually disappear along with lightning cables. The regulation actually says that cables can no longer be bundled with the devices themselves, so Ni…

I think this is a stupid thing. Repurposing a commonly used connector for other things to reuse cheap connectors and cables is something that is usually done in the electronic industry (e.g. my oscilloscope use an HDMI socket for the logic analyzer input, you have plenty of lines and the connector is cheap and good). It's not uncommon to design a board and use type-C only for power (5V input, without the circuitry to…

The lowest spec for cables requires 5 wires (CC, 2 * USB 2.0, GND, PWR) and a rating of 3A. CC pins are required for USB-C, if they're left out most devices won't charge over it [1]. 3A is (in my opinion) a reasonable choice, since pre-USB-C devices took up to 2.1A and backwards compatibility is important. USB 2.0 data lanes aren't required for charging per-se, but the older charging protocols preceding USB-C did signalling of the allowed current over the USB 2.0 data lines (otherwise, only 100 mA is allowed).

If you want to build a board, compatible with all USB-IF certified chargers and cables and all USB-PD power supplies, that only takes 5 V, the circuitry is two resistors. BOM is always important and stuff, but two resistors is as cheap as it gets. If you just throw it on a board and don't even bother to do a 2 minute google search, I'd take that as an indicator of the effort behind the rest of the board.

If it's obvious that it's not a "real" usb-c connector, deviations are reasonable IMHO (for example, a high speed scope connector or a port labelled "debug" on measurement equipment), but for power it's a bad idea. Some products use a "USB-C" power supply putting out 12V all the time (frying other devices connected to it) or save on the 2 resistors, leading to a lot of user confusion when devices will only work with USB-A to USB-C cables.

To the latter point: Doubt it. HDMI has tried to include Ethernet (with optional data wires), which luckily was a huge failure (almost no one implemented it). DisplayPort was trying to become USB-C before USB became USB-C. Ethernet now often doubles as a power supply. SD card slots could serve as an additional periphery slot in PDAs with SDIO. The only port common on a modern laptop that didn't (at least try) to include some completely other feature is probably the 3.5mm headphone socket (probably since there is no standard committee and even agreeing on how the 4 pin extension should work was a huge mess).

[1] The CC line is needed to determine which device is a power sink & power source. Otherwise, users might connect two 5V power supplies together and create a short (between probably 5.2V & 4.8V)

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