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Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

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Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#371

Post by thatwasunusual »

giantg2 wrote: post #14

"SSB claims they want a less time-consuming way of collecting and analysing household consumption statistics in order to inform tax policy, social assistance and child allowance." Aka the more we know about you, the more efficiently we can create policies to control your behavior to our liking.

> Aka the more we know about you, the more efficiently we can create policies to control your behavior to our liking.

How about this phrasing instead?

_"The more we know about you, the more efficiently we can create policies to control your behavior to *YOUR* liking."_

Not all governments are unfriendly to their people. Or, should I say, not all people imagine their government is evil. I'm looking at you USA.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#372

Post by c_--vote_win »

wiz21c wrote: post #259
ceejayoz wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep; societally, they've got a very different attitude towards privacy. Everyone's salary is publicly available online. (So's the fact that you looked!) https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-40669239

As said in the article, we already share our data with the supermarket, google, etc and whatever other systems that binds all of them together. In that situation, I'm happy that government has access to the same data because it gives it a way to balance the private sector power. Now what is needed is the ability to opt out.

No post body was provided.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#373

Post by mdp2021 »

twobitshifter wrote: post #317
hhjinks wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're free to live in the woods if you don't like the deal. You don't get to use any of society's infrastructure if you don't opt in, though. You won't be taxed, of course, since you can't engage with any economic activity within society. I'm sure you could make a nice commune in the wilderness somewhere. Just don't bring anything from society with you, like tools, clothes, food, livestock, seeds. Good luck out ther…

Where can this be done legally in the US?

You should probably check for "public land", which is found in almost all States but is very, very frequent west of Texas. See e.g. the map at:

https://vividmaps.com/non-private-land-in-united-states/

But you should check what you can do in it. It will be probably legal to park a vehicle there and very probably illegal to dig a moat around it (public means "of everyone", not just "free").

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#374

Post by karencarits »

yunohn wrote: post #344
karencarits wrote: post #178

One should be aware that Norway already has very comprehensive registers and databases about the population. Currently, it has only been a benefit, I think, as it enables detailed quality control of say health care services and high-quality register studies. For example, all health/hospital records of deceased Norwegians are digitalized ten years after death and added to a national register. No way to refuse. In my o…

> In my opinion, that is much more invasive Sorry, what? You’re saying a digitised deaths registry is more invasive than tracking all supermarket purchases?

In my opinion, yes (regarding health records, as pointed out by others). Confidentiality is a core value in health care, it's even explicitly stated in the Geneva declaration:

> AS A MEMBER OF THE MEDICAL PROFESSION: > ... > I WILL RESPECT the secrets that are confided in me, even after the patient has died

To me, financial information seems less private. Furthermore, I can use cash or ask a friend to buy things for me, but I cannot have a friend seeing the psychologist or having an abortion in my place. If I was struggling with some taboo-ish condition (say, pedophilic thoughts), the idea that this information would be kept and possibly leaked in the future, would heighten the bar for seeking help. And although I will be dead, my health records may contain information about the living, say information about heritable conditions.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#375

Post by guerrilla »

guruz wrote: post #131
ekianjo wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when do governments care about what people think? Even with mass demonstrations they typically hardly move an inch.

Please check rank of https://www.statista.com/statistics/679796/democracy-index-m... :-)

That is a joke. Sweden is 4th on that list. Despite the fact that the vast majority voted for anti-NATO parties, they just refused to have a referendum or wait until the election (in 90 days) to make a decision and explicitly stated they will not consult us. (No, polls aren't elections. Don't even start.) This isn't exactly unique either. They regularly do things people don't want and can't stop. On top of that, we have powerful lobbyists and shittons of propaganda too, just like everyone else.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#376

Post by bjornsing »

wiz21c wrote: post #259
ceejayoz wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep; societally, they've got a very different attitude towards privacy. Everyone's salary is publicly available online. (So's the fact that you looked!) https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-40669239

As said in the article, we already share our data with the supermarket, google, etc and whatever other systems that binds all of them together. In that situation, I'm happy that government has access to the same data because it gives it a way to balance the private sector power. Now what is needed is the ability to opt out.

This angle is increasingly popular, but I think totally naive and even dangerous: When the shit hits the fan there is no “balance” of power between government and the private sector. History is not full of examples of corporations putting people in camps and working them to death, despite the government’s attempts to prevent it. The government has all the power (when it really matters).

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#377

Post by kalmi10 »

dotancohen wrote: post #365
MontyCarloHall wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Realistically, what is the worst possible consequence of a supermarket being able to track you? At worst, I suppose you be could be charged more for purchasing a certain item at that particular chain. I highly doubt this has ever happened, since it's bad for business. The usual consequence for getting tracked at the supermarket is getting a discount on certain groceries via a loyalty program, with zero downsides for…

I do not think it likely that e.g. grocery stores are expending capital to develop and implement systems to give there customers leverage to pay them less money, with no benefit (never mind net benefit) to the grocery store. It's more likely that there is a side to the art of tracking that you do not account for, than the idea that the grocery stores are so benevolent.

I think the idea is that if one in a loyalty program, and it provides them with some discount/benefits, then they are more likely to shop there instead of at some other chain. This way they spend their money at that chain, and that is good for the store. It's just one more way stores are competing with each other. It also provides the chain with some data, but I am uncertain of its utility. I don't really believe it to be useful for them in general for anything other than targeting.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#378

Post by moistly »

throwaway4aday wrote: post #333
moistly wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As far as I know, if you use a credit card they only know the total of how much you spent Oh, no, no. They report so much more: Merchant name Purchase amount Date Billing zip code Sales tax amount Tax indicator Merchant postal code Merchant tax ID Invoice number Order number Customer code (if purchasing cards) Item commodity code(s) Item description(s) (SKU) Unit price(s) Quantity Unit of measure Extended price Dis…

The information you linked doesn't seem to indicate that a grocery store would do this. > Level 3 credit card data involves large transactions that take place primarily with B2B or business-to-government (B2G). These transactions take place using corporate purchasing cards, which allow the companies or government agencies to monitor purchases and have access to detailed spending reports. Instead, it seems that level…

Right you are. I skimmed and misinterpreted.

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#379

Post by mdp2021 »

fullshark wrote: post #48
ekianjo wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please consult the official list for alternatives.” More likely a new way to tax stuff that the government does not like. Eating too much red-meat from methane-producing cows? Extra climate change tax for you!

Can’t they just add a meat sales tax to accomplish that?

> Can’t they just add a meat sales tax

No, because the (sinisterly clever) idea of ekianjo allows the implementation of something which is sought by some: progressive taxation of limited resources or externalities etc, as opposed to fixed one. It's akin to rationing. You drive 10000 miles/y, pay 1/u or 1000; if 20000 miles/y, pay 2/u or 4000...

Re: Norway to track all supermarket purchases?

#380

Post by MontyCarloHall »

dotancohen wrote: post #365
MontyCarloHall wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Realistically, what is the worst possible consequence of a supermarket being able to track you? At worst, I suppose you be could be charged more for purchasing a certain item at that particular chain. I highly doubt this has ever happened, since it's bad for business. The usual consequence for getting tracked at the supermarket is getting a discount on certain groceries via a loyalty program, with zero downsides for…

I do not think it likely that e.g. grocery stores are expending capital to develop and implement systems to give there customers leverage to pay them less money, with no benefit (never mind net benefit) to the grocery store. It's more likely that there is a side to the art of tracking that you do not account for, than the idea that the grocery stores are so benevolent.

The benefit to the store is that they can more closely monitor consumption patterns across time (e.g. people buying X will also frequently buy Y, but not necessarily on the same grocery trip). I don’t see how this is harmful to the consumer.
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