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The Xinjiang Police Files

xinjiangpolicefiles.org

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Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#241

Post by MockObject »

4ggr0 wrote: post #215
smcl wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comments which mention socialism or communism in a way that doesn't explicitly condemn it are often downvoted to oblivion on HN. I got it once because I mentioned that I thought Tito was an interesting guy. FWIW I'll vouch the comment if it gets made [dead]

Yes, but I notice this in real life as well. As soon as I dare to suppose that merely the theory of communism is not 100% evil, I get treated like a full-on communist defending that "Stalin killed 100 million people". Can't even blame people that much, used to think the same. Then I read a couple of books, educated myself about different political ideologies and now I'm better able to talk about this topic rationally…

While it may be true that the criticisms of the Bolsheviks leveled by Kautsky may point to a disapproval of Leninism by Marx and Engels, nevertheless, no non-Leninist socialist revolution has ever occurred, and so the charge of brutal dictatorship is valid and legitimate in historical practice.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#242

Post by car_analogy »

layer8 wrote: post #116
langsoul-com wrote: post #83

Someone is gonna get jailed for this leak.

The files where obtained by hacking into their systems, presumably from outside China.

That's too bad. It means we can't use Twitter to publicize it: https://help.twitter.com/en/rules-and-policies/hacked-materi...

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#243

Post by chitowneats »

aaomidi wrote: post #240
rayiner wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My impression is that most Muslims don’t real care about Muslims from other ethnic groups. Pakistan and Bangladesh, for example, are happy to suck up to China for the business opportunities. Similarly, the gulf states took few Syrian refugees during the recent crises: https://www.lejournalinternational.fr/Syrian-refugees-why-wo... . More generally, Arabs regard non-Arab Muslims as barely human—e.g. holding Bangladesh…

The xenophobia in these comments is amazing. "Muslims don't care about Muslims" Yes Muslims are just completely different types of human. Who knew!

Making an observation about a group of people is not "xenophobia". Quite the opposite in fact.

If you read the comment more closely, it's not "muslims don't care about muslims", it's, "arabs don't care about southeast asians", which... well, there's a ton of evidence for this unfortunately.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#244

Post by femiagbabiaka »

lazylion2 wrote: post #140
femiagbabiaka wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not a far cry, it is in fact almost exactly the same situation, although to my knowledge the crimes of Israel are much more well documented by many sources. Also note that it has taken almost a decade to get to this level of awareness and still to this day Israel critics are called anti-semites and worse. Hopefully more widespread awareness and outrage about the treatment of Muslims in Xinjiang comes soon. EDIT…

"almost exactly the same situation" Did the Muslims in Xinjiang declare a war against China? did they blow up Chinese buses or shoot thousands of rockets at Chinese civilians ?

This is the exact reasoning that Russia is using to justify its invasion of Ukraine.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#246

Post by tnjm »

legalcorrection wrote: post #233
tnjm wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the UN definition of genocide [0], you'll see that a population increase doesn't contradict (the UN concept of) genocide at all. The key is intent. [0] https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

A convenient sleight of hand for international liberals. To the average person, genocide means extermination by mass murder. So people make that incredibly damning accusation, and then when it's pointed out that no such thing is happening, they retreat into a technical definition that no one outside of the NGO/activist world cares or knows about.

Is it really sleight of hand, though, when you'd get essentially the same answer when consulting the UN, Wikipedia or... a dictionary?

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#247

Post by legalcorrection »

tnjm wrote: post #246
legalcorrection wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A convenient sleight of hand for international liberals. To the average person, genocide means extermination by mass murder. So people make that incredibly damning accusation, and then when it's pointed out that no such thing is happening, they retreat into a technical definition that no one outside of the NGO/activist world cares or knows about.

Is it really sleight of hand, though, when you'd get essentially the same answer when consulting the UN, Wikipedia or... a dictionary?

Yes. We speak to an audience of people, not dictionaries. If you're talking to a conference of international NGO activists, then that's one thing. But mass media headlines are for the consumption of the common person. You choose your words according to what they mean to your audience.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#248

Post by Gud »

skitout wrote: post #214
rayiner wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My impression is that most Muslims don’t real care about Muslims from other ethnic groups. Pakistan and Bangladesh, for example, are happy to suck up to China for the business opportunities. Similarly, the gulf states took few Syrian refugees during the recent crises: https://www.lejournalinternational.fr/Syrian-refugees-why-wo... . More generally, Arabs regard non-Arab Muslims as barely human—e.g. holding Bangladesh…

My impression is that most people do not really care about other groups... unless it indirectly talks about something they are sensible, or they can clearly identify with the victims. For example people (and media) in France don't care about violence between groups in Africa. We quite never heard about the Congo Wars, about Ethiopia, about the Lord's Resistance Army... But heard a lot about Jihadist movements in Afri…

I don't think this is true. Right now there are millions of Ukrainian refugees in Europe being welcomed with open arms, after millions upon million of muslim refugees have already entered the continent.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#250

Post by Sporktacular »

thriftwy wrote: post #229
Sporktacular wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said Russia fought for a "stable Chechen political regime that sort-of works". Jataman606 says it's disingenuous to suggest that - and you just let it go. And he's right. Grozny was demolished, no civil society left, horrendous human rights violations, no justice for survivors, just appeals to the corrupt, absolute power of Kadyrov. To say that sort-of-works is disingenuous and lets Russia off the hook for its pa…

Russia has got a stable Chechen political regime that sort-of works. Jataman606 did not really refute it, instead pivoting into biased history diving. "No civil society left, horrendous human rights violations" is what there were before the Second Chechen war - there was an alpha version of ISIS there, with slave markets and kidnappings for ransom. Was it worth it fighting ISIS? Absolutely. Was it worth it fighting I…

And Russia levelled it. They could have chosen to develop it, establish courts and other institutions, try war criminals. But their intentions were laid bare when they backed a dictator with many of the same human rights problems. That's why Jataman606 called your argument disingenuous, he's right and you haven't refuted that.

"Chechnya is just people living up to their own political preferences and capabilities."

First, Russia is in charge, but somehow it's on Chechens and Muslims for failing to turn their country around and implement liberal reforms. How does that work? Why are you so keen to fight off criticism of Russia and its obvious, self-evident record of political wasteland wherever it treads? And don't whatabout America/China/X this time.

Second, your arguments drip with the bigotry of low expectations - seeing Chechens and Muslims as people essentially capable of only primitive political organisation. You just ignore every tortured journalist, every silenced student or professor so you can reduce the lack of political development to something essential to the people themselves. Every large group contains people wanting peace, freedom, justice etc.

And I don't make any assumptions about what 'all Muslims' or 'all Chechens' want, my argument doesn't need to. I can ask 100 of them and accept as many answers, but your argument can't do that. And you confuse what they want with what they have while glossing over the many things that can go wrong when trying to turn the first into the second. But sure, let's blame their genes/culture/whatever, just not Mother Russia.

Just in case you're confused about all the down votes.

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