The photo of the woman on the BBC article is very powerful
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/85qihtvw6e/the-faces-from-c...
The Xinjiang Police Files
81–90 of 338 posts
Re: The Xinjiang Police Files
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's very, very hard to know what's really going on in a totalitarian / authoritarian country, even when they let you in and explore unreservedly. Famously, the Red Cross inspected one Nazi concentration camp and gave it the thumbs up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresienstadt_Ghetto_and_the_... Needless to say, there was nothing good about that camp, or any of the other ones.
First, how can you get closer to the truth without ever going to the damn place? Second, I agree there's a capability of falsification from either side, be it china or a news outlet. But neither does it translate to guilt on either side. In the absence of such you'll have to consider from the first principles, and you'll find the US/west/people involve have a lot more incentive to keep china down. As such the better…
I'm quite wary of "taking sides"; what's public is alarming, I mostly take it at face value, but don't add weight. I'm not saying the truth is somewhere between the extremes, I suspect the accusations are right, but I don't confuse my suspicion with proof.
If something has no value as evidence, then you should disregard it. If China is a murderous totalitarian state, it will show beautiful, pristine "reeducation camps" to outsiders. If it is not a murderous totalitarian state, it will also show beautiful, pristine "reeducation camps".
You can totally learn about something without physically going there. Satellite imagery, intelligence-gathering... in fact for sure you can learn a lot more from document caches or finding insiders willing to talk than seeing some kind of "micro" insight into these camps. If I find a small handful of victims, well who knows, maybe they were unlucky. If I find a document specifying how to torment those incarcerated en masse, that's a smoking gun.
Re: The Xinjiang Police Files
#83Someone is gonna get jailed for this leak.
Re: The Xinjiang Police Files
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is not a far cry, it is in fact almost exactly the same situation, although to my knowledge the crimes of Israel are much more well documented by many sources. Also note that it has taken almost a decade to get to this level of awareness and still to this day Israel critics are called anti-semites and worse. Hopefully more widespread awareness and outrage about the treatment of Muslims in Xinjiang comes soon. EDIT…
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Calling Zionism equivalent to Nazism seems to be an overgeneralization. It would be better served to point out the similarities of both movements as overtly nationalistic, militant, and carried strongly by an undercurrent of racism. Furthermore, the current definition of Nazi is shifting away from that of the political party of the 30's and 40's and blending with a multitude of other racist and nationistic sentiments.
The persecution of an ethnic group towards the annihilation of their identity and way of life is inherently genocidal, but genocide predates Nazism and Zionism by millennia.
Re: The Xinjiang Police Files
#85I'm always surprised how little interest there seems to be from the international muslim community in the Xinjiang situation, given that at least parts of it really blow up over even minor anti-Islam actions by single individuals quite regularly. The actions of China seem at least in part aimed at extinguishing Islam as a religion in the region, which would seem far worse than some person drawing a cartoon. But maybe…
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Re: The Xinjiang Police Files
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is not a far cry, it is in fact almost exactly the same situation, although to my knowledge the crimes of Israel are much more well documented by many sources. Also note that it has taken almost a decade to get to this level of awareness and still to this day Israel critics are called anti-semites and worse. Hopefully more widespread awareness and outrage about the treatment of Muslims in Xinjiang comes soon. EDIT…
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The international community looks at Israel and sees Arab citizens, Arab judges including on the supreme court, the 14 current elected Arab members of the Knesset.
They look at the ancient, vibrant jewish communities that have historically been well integrated across the predominantly Arab nations of the Middle East for thousands of years and...
Sorry, who are the Nazis?
I'm in no way trying to justify everything done by the Jewish state, the persistent harassment of Palestinians and encroachments in the West bank are deplorable. However equating that to naziism, while glossing over the utter apocalyptic devastation visited on Jewish communities all over the region is frankly revolting. Neither side in that conflict has come out of it looking good. Yes extremist zionists are some of the worst of the worst, but equivalent extremism on this issue is utterly normalised in the Muslim world and is in fact the national policy of many Muslim states.
Meanwhile China gets an unconditional free pass because money.
Re: The Xinjiang Police Files
#87[flagged]
Re: The Xinjiang Police Files
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
I also find that interesting in contrast to the constant outrage about the situation of Palestinians in Israel which certainly has many highly problematic aspects but to me still seems to be a far cry from the situation of Muslims in China or the treatment of the predominantly Muslim Chechnians by Russia. It seems to be quite hypocritical by the governments of Muslim countries.
I think that's adequately explained by the fact that, unlike China, Israel is considered an ally in the west. That means we are in some way more responsible for the actions of Israel than the actions of China, as continued support implies agreement with those actions, to some extent.
Yes - the US and many other western nations have propped up Israel, in many ways enabling the continued aggression towards Palestine, though much of the west has an economic incentive to continue turning a blind eye towards the ongoing persecution of the Uyghur population. We are not blameless in their struggle.
Re: The Xinjiang Police Files
#891. The populated of "genocided" Uyghur ethnic group has increased from 10.17 million to 12.71 million from 2010 to 2018. This sort of contradicts with the concept of genocide. The increase rate of ~25% is higher than Xinjiang ~14% and much higher than the main ethnic group Han ~2%.
2. I personally tried really hard to track down a source that DOESN'T ULTIMATELY LEAD TO ADRIAN ZENZ but has failed to do so. As GameOfFrowns commented earlier, he is at a position with many reasons to fabricate/exaggerate negative facts against China. If hundreds of articles from many different organizations/countries are based on one single person, it's hard for me not to regard this Adrian Zenz as a pretense. Even interviews with so-called family relatives are connected to this magical Zenz.
Many BBC reports/articles claims a resource of "some investigation" or "some research" that either leads to nowhere or to Adrian Zenz. If one claims that it's barely possible to know what's really happening in an authoritarian country, these reports are at least as untrustworthy as China's claims. It's even more amazing that Adrian Zenz has this power to do the investigation that all other organizations/governments cannot do.
3. My personal option: China started this so-called educational camp because of the peak of terrorism in Xinjiang in 2009. And it's very possible that the anti-terrorism action went beyond what it should have. Investigations, evidence etc. should be encouraged to correct any mistake that have happened and prevent them from happening in the future. That being said, if this motive also goes beyond what it should be and turns into a means against China, the accusation makes no difference from what's accused of.
Re: The Xinjiang Police Files
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
I also find that interesting in contrast to the constant outrage about the situation of Palestinians in Israel which certainly has many highly problematic aspects but to me still seems to be a far cry from the situation of Muslims in China or the treatment of the predominantly Muslim Chechnians by Russia. It seems to be quite hypocritical by the governments of Muslim countries.
> the situation of Muslims in China Here's your problem; trying to talk about "the situation of Muslims in China" is incoherent. Islam has been an accepted (though small) part of Chinese culture for many centuries, and it still is. The Uyghurs are highly atypical Muslims in China who don't speak Chinese and don't participate in Chinese culture, instead preferring their own rival culture. That (and rebelliousness) is…
US media has a long history of conflating race, religion, and socioeconomic class, in part due to the tangled nature of the 'States own biases and prejudice.