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The Xinjiang Police Files

xinjiangpolicefiles.org

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Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#211

Post by skitout »

ashwagary wrote: post #204
falsepromises wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, a lot of the issues have to do with the systemic denial of resources and oppression in the region. For the most part like in most of Mainland China, the goal of the CCP has been to convert the local ethnic groups and populations to a singular Han identity. Accompanying this being that they both actively send people from the Mainland over to take over jobs of the local inhabitants it's pretty clear why a lot of…

>a lot of the issues have to do with the systemic denial of resources and oppression How do you explain Chinese Uyghurs committing terrorist acts in the rest of Asia outside of China?

Some Uighur did turn Jihadist. Oppression and denial of resources in an area is perfect for radicalization, including Jihadist radicalization if this area/population is mostly Muslim. But so far, the vast majority of Uighur and Kazakh in China are not Jihadist, not even Islamist.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#212

Post by k_sze »

mads wrote: post #103
chrischen wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you explain his controversy (I wasn't able to find anything on a quick Google search)?

Apparently a lot of people are suddenly experts on this guy Zenz. There appears to be sort of campaign going on in various places (like here on HN) to throw dirt at him.

Not suddenly. Lots of people have spent effort to criticize and debunk his stuff for a long time, if you know where to look.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#213

Post by Sporktacular »

ashwagary wrote: post #196
Sporktacular wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet more muslims have died fighting AQ and ISIS than any other religious group. Weird right?

>more muslims have died fighting AQ and ISIS than any other religious group I think we are making the same point. Some of the largest muslim countries (Indonesia, Pakistan) don't have sympathy for many Chinese Uyghur groups because once they leave China, they train with ISIS/Al Qaeda then plan and commit terrorist acts around Asia. Many believe the Chinese are doing them a favor with their detention and deradicalizat…

How can we be making the same point? Yours rests on the statement "It's the same reason most "Muslims" don't "care" about Al Qaeda and ISIS." which is objectively untrue.

Low sympathy due to a few Uyghur terrorists has nothing to do with it. There is no international political solidarity among Muslims based on faith, Palestine has proven that. That's just business and realpolitik.

As for their treatment, who cares what beliefs/excuses the Chinese people have/give? Oppressors always have some BS reason for what they'll support.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#214

Post by skitout »

rayiner wrote: post #155
shellfishgene wrote: post #33

I'm always surprised how little interest there seems to be from the international muslim community in the Xinjiang situation, given that at least parts of it really blow up over even minor anti-Islam actions by single individuals quite regularly. The actions of China seem at least in part aimed at extinguishing Islam as a religion in the region, which would seem far worse than some person drawing a cartoon. But maybe…

My impression is that most Muslims don’t real care about Muslims from other ethnic groups. Pakistan and Bangladesh, for example, are happy to suck up to China for the business opportunities. Similarly, the gulf states took few Syrian refugees during the recent crises: https://www.lejournalinternational.fr/Syrian-refugees-why-wo... . More generally, Arabs regard non-Arab Muslims as barely human—e.g. holding Bangladesh…

My impression is that most people do not really care about other groups... unless it indirectly talks about something they are sensible, or they can clearly identify with the victims.

For example people (and media) in France don't care about violence between groups in Africa. We quite never heard about the Congo Wars, about Ethiopia, about the Lord's Resistance Army... But heard a lot about Jihadist movements in Africa or Muslim Nigerians killing Christians, because it resonate with our "experience", and resonate with the world view of some people (Islam vs Christianity).(note that France have a good history of supporting dodgy groups and activities in Africa).

Muslim are like us all.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#215

Post by 4ggr0 »

smcl wrote: post #133
4ggr0 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know that I am part of a minority when saying this, and to give some context, I live in a Social Democracy and do like it as it is. Now, why I don't like this foundation. First off, every bad thing happening in communist countries seems to be attributed to the concept of communism itself, and not to the fact that these countries are ruled by dictators. They also state "we tell the truth about communism because our…

Comments which mention socialism or communism in a way that doesn't explicitly condemn it are often downvoted to oblivion on HN. I got it once because I mentioned that I thought Tito was an interesting guy. FWIW I'll vouch the comment if it gets made [dead]

Yes, but I notice this in real life as well. As soon as I dare to suppose that merely the theory of communism is not 100% evil, I get treated like a full-on communist defending that "Stalin killed 100 million people".

Can't even blame people that much, used to think the same. Then I read a couple of books, educated myself about different political ideologies and now I'm better able to talk about this topic rationally. I still think a communist state which truly works is very hard to achieve and not that necessary, even just when talking about having to convince people that we or they should try. But I took some 'marxist' principles to heart and base my political thinking around concepts like class conflict and economic/social equality, without feeling or describing myself as communist. I still vote for SocDems, I'm probably just a bit more "extreme" than their average voter.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#216

Post by trasz »

watwut wrote: post #164
cies wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you are right, I think GP still has a point. Those responsible for the MOVE massacre walked from it. The broader point I think GP tries to make is: the west should not be so quick to point fingers, especially not while it's own fingers are covered in blood. The US likes to same "human rights violations" about other nations, but then commits many themselves every year, and claims to be above the The Hague court.…

Nah. Note how the invocation of move bombing is not even attempt to compare the level of both countries crimes historically. It is literally just attempt to "since America has/did crimes, no one is allowed to criticize China/Israel/Russia". Moreover, while USA did in fact committed crimes either on own soil or internationally, claiming that it is exactly the same as China or Russia is just wrong. America has its own…

>It is literally just attempt to "since America has/did crimes, no one is allowed to criticize China/Israel/Russia".

Not at all. Please read my comment in its context: it's a response to parent's claim that this can only happen in China, because in the West the public has the right to speak out and fix it - while in reality it happens too, and simply gets ignored, sometimes without even bothering to cover it up.

Also - ever seen the racial stats for US prisons, or for police shooting victims? Doesn't it look like a genocide to you? If it doesn't - perhaps it's because you've been told your entire life that it's actually normal, same way Chinese are taught their government crimes are ok. And even if it does - do you believe you can realistically do anything about it?

On the other hand in US it's at least properly documented. China does have a terrible problem with transparency, and I'm afraid it might be a cultural thing, because it's not just China.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#217

Post by trasz »

glenstein wrote: post #192
refurb wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're suggesting that the US, since it's guilty of human rights violations, should just be silent when it sees others countries commit human rights violations? I think that's absurd. There isn't a country on this planet who hasn't committed some human rights violation in its past. By your logic, nobody should ever call out human rights violations...ever. A far better approach is to judge a country by its actions…

Right, that's classic whataboutism, and it uses an inch of U.S. abuses to sweep away a mile of abuses by China. Those things just don't exist in a logical relationship of justifying, absolving, or forbidding analysis of one another. Their relation, if there is one at all, would be an and relationship, not an or , and certainly not an xor . Even a person fully invested in talking about U.S. human rights abuses and cat…

This above has a name: "American Exceptionalism".

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#218

Post by trasz »

refurb wrote: post #134
trasz wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only a little over 30 years ago USA rolled out its police to blow up its own citizens, razing entire city block: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_MOVE_bombing . They didn't need to deny or cover up anything, obviously nobody got punished for this, because the victims were black. So, yeah, while the Western people can certainly voice their opinion, it's often because their opinion doesn't matter. ("According to an a…

Did you read your own link? The "Aftermath" section where several courts condemned those actions and awarded substantial awards to the victims. The City apologized. Independent commissions condemned the decision. Can you please list all of the acts of restitution that the Chinese government has done since 1989? Oh, and ignoring all that, you're posting an awful lot of whataboutisms . I count about 9 of them so far. W…

Ah, right, they apologised. That changes everything :->

What matters is that nobody - not a single one of perpetrators of a bombing organised by police, which killed five random kids, and this is ignoring reports of police shooting at survivors fleeing the fire - got punished. "The city" paid some (public) money, that's all. It's not whataboutism, it's showing that the claim that "public condemnation against China will do nothing" because of Tienanmen is terribly misleading: those same things happen everywhere, you're just assuming they are somehow fundamentally different there. Sometimes they are, but mostly not.

As for the Chinese government: Chinese prime minister responsible for Tienanmen spent the rest of his life in house arrest. Can you imagine this happening in the land of the free?

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#219

Post by MrPatan »

tigerlily wrote: post #118
md_ wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of it might have to do with both covert and overt influence by China on foreign powers. https://harpers.org/archive/2022/04/the-spies-next-door-uigh... goes into a little detail here: "China also employs diplomatic pressure and financial incentives to secure foreign assistance in its efforts to persecute Uighurs abroad. Imran Khan, the prime minister of Pakistan—one of China’s principal allies and the recipient…

> Turkish police have detained over one hundred Uighurs Seems unbelievable considering Uighurs are, well, Turkic. Due in no small part to Genghis Khan of course.

Would it surprise you to find that Turkish police detain lots and lots of other Turkic people?

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#220

Post by trasz »

md_ wrote: post #126
trasz wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, this is a common pattern in anything involving Adrian Zenz: by throwing together two facts, the growing usage of contraceptives - itself a healthy trend in a region where it’s common to have lots of kids (one child policy didn’t apply to Uighurs) - and several cases of forced sterilization, he gets to conclusion of “population-wide forced sterilization” - which is not supported by factual evidence. As for “what…

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/abortions-... , for example.

This only shows that they happen. That part is pretty well documented, but the same thing happens in Western prisons. What it doesn't show is that they were officially sanctioned, as opposed to being committed by a guard against the law.
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