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The Xinjiang Police Files

xinjiangpolicefiles.org

91–100 of 338 posts

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#91

I'm always surprised how little interest there seems to be from the international muslim community in the Xinjiang situation, given that at least parts of it really blow up over even minor anti-Islam actions by single individuals quite regularly. The actions of China seem at least in part aimed at extinguishing Islam as a religion in the region, which would seem far worse than some person drawing a cartoon. But maybe…

> The actions of China seem at least in part aimed at extinguishing Islam as a religion in the region

Not really.

Islam has been present in China for over a thousand years, and the Uyghurs do not represent the majority of muslims in the country, which are actually the Hui (ethnic Chinese who converted) and outside of Xinjiang.

For the Chinese government this is a question of national unity against separatist movements, which is a more ethnic than religious problem, and political control. I'm thinking that they actually prefer Islam, which is unstructured, to the Catholic Church (hence action they regularly take against it) although, obviously from a communist stand-point no religion at all is the best option, and so Islam is not really singled out.

Many muslim countries also have strategic interests in having good relations with China, including Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Pakistan, and thus abstain from raising any issues, not least since China has also the advantage of not being involved in the Middle East and of keeping a neutral stance there. Now, there are anti-Chinese terrorist attacks in Pakistan but everyone tries hard to keep a lid of them for these reasons.

If anything, and cynically, the West would very much like muslim extremists to turn their attention more towards China because obviously that would be destabilising for China, and so the anti-islam narrative is pushed at every turn.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not a far cry, it is in fact almost exactly the same situation, although to my knowledge the crimes of Israel are much more well documented by many sources. Also note that it has taken almost a decade to get to this level of awareness and still to this day Israel critics are called anti-semites and worse. Hopefully more widespread awareness and outrage about the treatment of Muslims in Xinjiang comes soon. EDIT…

[flagged]

I think that what you said is an important point to make, and thanks for making it.

Note, that you lost some people when you said "anyone with a even a shred of reason would conclude that Zionism is the very reincarnation of Nazism". That's too dramatic: say bold things in subtle ways. If you're comparing Israel's and WW2 Germany's oppressive and violent tendencies, say that without generalizing, otherwise you might sound lazy or dogmatic.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#93
post #67

I'm always surprised how little interest there seems to be from the international muslim community in the Xinjiang situation, given that at least parts of it really blow up over even minor anti-Islam actions by single individuals quite regularly. The actions of China seem at least in part aimed at extinguishing Islam as a religion in the region, which would seem far worse than some person drawing a cartoon. But maybe…

That’s why, as a westerner, I consider the Uyghur issue not to be ‘our’ problem. It’s terrible what’s happening there, but there are more than 2 billion muslims in the world who can do something about it.

When human rights are being violated it's everyone's problem.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#94
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, how can you get closer to the truth without ever going to the damn place? Second, I agree there's a capability of falsification from either side, be it china or a news outlet. But neither does it translate to guilt on either side. In the absence of such you'll have to consider from the first principles, and you'll find the US/west/people involve have a lot more incentive to keep china down. As such the better…

I'm quite wary of "taking sides"; what's public is alarming, I mostly take it at face value, but don't add weight. I'm not saying the truth is somewhere between the extremes, I suspect the accusations are right, but I don't confuse my suspicion with proof. If something has no value as evidence, then you should disregard it. If China is a murderous totalitarian state, it will show beautiful, pristine "reeducation camp…

> You can totally learn about something without physically going there.

And you can make mistakes with that learning too. And this isn't the first time - I recall the CIA claiming some farm buildings being missile silos. This is why you get closer to see if there are any mistakes. Otherwise you're just taking a single narrative and running with it, and repeating it. Multiple perspectives HELP.

Regarding evidence - do consider that it has a potential to be tainted too, similar to the claims about China and camp tours. News outlets don't verify these studies thoroughly and already present it as truth for outrage points.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#95

I'm always surprised how little interest there seems to be from the international muslim community in the Xinjiang situation, given that at least parts of it really blow up over even minor anti-Islam actions by single individuals quite regularly. The actions of China seem at least in part aimed at extinguishing Islam as a religion in the region, which would seem far worse than some person drawing a cartoon. But maybe…

No post body was provided.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#96

1. The populated of "genocided" Uyghur ethnic group has increased from 10.17 million to 12.71 million from 2010 to 2018. This sort of contradicts with the concept of genocide. The increase rate of ~25% is higher than Xinjiang ~14% and much higher than the main ethnic group Han ~2%. 2. I personally tried really hard to track down a source that DOESN'T ULTIMATELY LEAD TO ADRIAN ZENZ but has failed to do so. As GameOfFr…

If you read the UN definition of genocide [0], you'll see that a population increase doesn't contradict (the UN concept of) genocide at all. The key is intent.

[0] https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#97
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not saying everything's false btw. My guess is China/CCP doesn't have much trust in western news outlets, hence no freedom of press. Also, you're making a lot of claims on the second guy too. > There's no need to come here and see anything cos he's lying China did invite muslim countries and some other western ones to xinjiang. Some western countries declined to go claiming taint. If you expand the horizon beyond jus…

I don't have much care for the US as I live in Asia (Currently Taiwan) and am from New Zealand. So I'm in no way trying to justify what the US has done or doing and they can be just as guilty. However the two situations are vastly different. The US has a history of reporting on issues that happen on their own turf. Sometimes with positive outcomes, sometimes without any outcome at all. With China, the CCP controls th…

From your post, it seems your issue lies mainly with distrust of the CCP. I agree, that's fine.

> However the two situations are vastly different. The US has a history of reporting on issues that happen on their own turf. Sometimes with positive outcomes, sometimes without any outcome at all.

I'm not sure what you're trying to justify on the US? My interpretation is that it seems more truthful to you at least because you have some aligned values?

This where past details really have to come in imo. Consider the times. China is a rising challenger to the current hegemony and historically they will fight on some level. And fighting is dirty. Most people align with the side that has the most shared common values, and make judgements accordingly. They have no time and energy to dive into the details. Knowing that, these entities will try to manipulate you. If you don't want to be manipulated, you just have to spend a little effort on reading up on different narratives and figure out what's relevant.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#98
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm quite wary of "taking sides"; what's public is alarming, I mostly take it at face value, but don't add weight. I'm not saying the truth is somewhere between the extremes, I suspect the accusations are right, but I don't confuse my suspicion with proof. If something has no value as evidence, then you should disregard it. If China is a murderous totalitarian state, it will show beautiful, pristine "reeducation camp…

> You can totally learn about something without physically going there. And you can make mistakes with that learning too. And this isn't the first time - I recall the CIA claiming some farm buildings being missile silos. This is why you get closer to see if there are any mistakes. Otherwise you're just taking a single narrative and running with it, and repeating it. Multiple perspectives HELP. Regarding evidence - do…

You're arguing against points I'm not making. All I'm saying is, arranged visits by Chinese government to Xinjiang are meaningless and can't prove, or even hint, what China is really doing there. The "evidence" provided by China will look the same, regardless of their fault or virtue.

So going/not going on such trips, and any authority rejecting or accepting this as evidence are meaningless.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#99
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The international community looks at Israel and sees Arab citizens, Arab judges including on the supreme court, the 14 current elected Arab members of the Knesset. They look at the ancient, vibrant jewish communities that have historically been well integrated across the predominantly Arab nations of the Middle East for thousands of years and... Sorry, who are the Nazis? I'm in no way trying to justify everything don…

China has Uyghur politicians, so by your reasoning, they're identical to Israel.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#100
post #58
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you show me the part where the post documents systemic sterilization, or torture, or any of the “cultural genocide” claims? Note that nobody claims there were no cases of the above; it’s just those cases also happen in eg American prisons. (And of course note how simply asking a question - and suggesting the apparently missing evidence is, indeed, missing, gets quickly downvoted.)

I'm confused. Is your point that the rates in Xinjiang of forced sterilization and IUD implantation--in the general population, not merely in prisons--is equivalent to the rates of forced sterilization in American prison populations? I think that's exceedingly unlikely; there's no pattern of forced sterilization in American prison populations, though indeed a shameful history of such practices (e.g. https://www.thegu…

See, this is a common pattern in anything involving Adrian Zenz: by throwing together two facts, the growing usage of contraceptives - itself a healthy trend in a region where it’s common to have lots of kids (one child policy didn’t apply to Uighurs) - and several cases of forced sterilization, he gets to conclusion of “population-wide forced sterilization” - which is not supported by factual evidence.

As for “what about” - I agree that all violations of human rights matter. But if we ignore facts and believe propaganda instead, eventually we will forget about those facts. Just how most people don’t think much about Saddam’s victims because of how US lied to justify the invasion.

Can you show me the source for the claim that those crimes in Xinjang are officially sanctioned?

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