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A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

theatlantic.com

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Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#591
There's really a lot in this essay, and I'll forget or get before before I provide all the commentary I might want to.

> But she never did. She never agreed.

Your rights end where mine begin. And by that, I mean "my intolerance trumps whatever your opinion is".

That means the most flexible people, often the most rational, have to accept the intolerance and lack of flexibility of others to coexist.

I don't like my kitchen counter cleaned with a rag that becomes dirty upon first use and then adds bacteria on multiple following uses. I would rather the counter keep only the germs it currently has. Or better yet, I would prefer it be cleaned with a fresh towel or even light detergent and very hot water.

I don't like the toothpaste bottle to be buried in a basket under my wife's nightly consumables, such that when I go to bed later I have to dig through a lot of stuff to find the toothpaste. I would rather the bottle be left on the counter where both people can find it. But that bottle on the counter is a no-no. So I bend, but it pushes me a little more away every night.

> It was about consideration

I do not believe that consideration was the issue with TFA's wife. TFA had valid reasons for leaving a glass on the counter. Wife lacked consideration and pragmatism.

As an alien to earth, I realize my perspective may be warped. But it makes sense to me.

And as such, I think the problem with most relationships is ignorance and lack of ability to reason.

Reasons people feel how they feel:

- there is a practical time/money/pain cost between the alternatives

- there is a habit which is hard to change

- there is a behavior with no forethought and no post-evaluation

Some things have assessable costs. I could come up with any number of examples, but one very silly example would be parking. If I choose to park behind someone on a driveway instead of beside or on the street, it will take the starting and moving of my car (time, fuel, and minor wear and tear cost) to move my car out of the way so they can leave. Now in the larger consideration, perhaps there is no side-by-side room, and the street option is risky. Then it's a matter of risk balancing and personal time cost.

Some things are just habits, often learned from our upbringing. Someone who grows up with a particular scarcity will be extra sensitive to waste on that resource. Even when the resource is no longer restricted (what's the right word I'm looking for?), the habit remains. "Don't use so much water!". "Yes, but it takes 60 seconds for the hot water to reach the faucet, and proper washing requires (debatable) water temperature." Or "nothing should be left on the counter", so the toothpaste goes into a bin beneath many other things. So whomever comes next to brush must dig for the toothpaste. Amusingly (passively-aggressively) my solution to the toothpaste problem was to buy a freaking lot of them and get a new one each night, allowing them to pile up.

Finally, there are just behaviors we learned as kids before we had reason. Some things must be done a very specific way, and other things can be done any way. Unfortunately, two people from different families will have different combinations of specific and any. Then it comes down to realization of the behavior and rational analysis of the pros and cons, and perhaps then the alternatives.

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Would taking 10 seconds to do this now make my wife 1% less stressed?" An addition to this unrelated to marriage - if it takes 10 seconds, why isn't it already done instead of considering whether to do it or not? I have a personal rule that unless I have another issue that requires attention right now (like working from home being work time, etc) If it take 5 minutes or less to do it I just do it right away and ne…

The other day my wife said, "Ugh, I hate it when you run the dishwasher during the day, because then I have to empty it before filling it." Sometimes you cannot win. But it's still a game worth playing: being married is the best thing that ever happened to me.

Dishwashers running overnight have been implicated in house fires. Best not to run the dishwasher unattended! :)

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#593

The author still doesn't seem to quite get it. The problem is that seeing the dish was one of his wife's primary interactions with him, and it was a negative one. She doesn't see him most of the day, I'm guessing, but she still sees the one glass on the otherwise pristine countertop and knows it's him. It causes a slight bad mood, which carries over to the time she does see him, which then puts him in a bad mood. The…

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Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#594
post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in a marriage and I struggle with this same question. I sometimes feel like the things my wife cares about are essentially endless. Like if I bend to "her way" and put effort into consistently placing the dirty cup in the dishwasher, next week something new comes up. Then it's the clothes on the floor of my side of the bed or not hanging my jacket or not putting my shoes away perfectly in the closet. At times I g…

>Like if I bend to "her way" and put effort into consistently placing the dirty cup in the dishwasher, next week something new comes up. Then it's the clothes on the floor of my side of the bed or not hanging my jacket or not putting my shoes away perfectly in the closet. At times I get the sensation that it just becomes like waking on eggshells to constantly mitigate somebody's upsetness of irrelevant (to me) things…

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Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#595
post #445

A lot of folks are misinterpreting this article, or just using it as a jumping off point to get something off their chest. This article is not literally about the dirty dish. It's not even about compromise. Rather, the article is really about having healthy communication with your partner. The author's wife was trying to communicate to him: "when you do X, I feel like Y, and it hurts me." But he wasn't hearing it. No…

> She knew that something was wrong. I insisted that everything was fine. This is how my marriage ended. It could be how yours ends too.

I think this is the important piece of the article. It highlights the lack of good communication.

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People expect a fairy tale, when they're signing up for a job. Nope. BS. And I am saying this as a guy with one failed marriage and now with a super happy one going stronger than before even, 8 years down the line. Stop perpetuating work ethic when it comes to feelings and partnership, please. Relationships can be beautiful in literally every way. Maybe just keep looking and don't generalize because that makes you…

The key is to find someone who is actually attracted to you. Not in a "oh I guess I can tolerate kissing you" type of way, but in a "I often fantasize about touching your body" type of way. Mutual sexual attraction makes it possible to develop that type of relationship, but a lot of the time men in particular settle for less. I strongly encourage anyone who doesn't have that type of relationship and wants one to brea…

Absolutely! I didn't even look that good when my wife found me; I had a belly and my teeth definitely needed attention (and after 32 months of bracers they look better than those of most people I meet nowadays ^_^). She still thought I was the sexiest man she has ever met, and her actions when we were alone confirmed it many times.

Without genuine attraction a relationship turns into a transaction. And it starts poisoning the sides involved.

I too recommend people getting a bit more courageous and stop settling for less than what would make them happy.

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#597
post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's ironic to me when women choose successful ambitious men to marry and then complain these same keep striving to climb up the corporate ranks.

Marrying a successful and ambitious 20-something in no way commits one to be fine with the same ambitious person uprooting family’s life a decade or two later and moving to the other side of the world. Family is about shared sacrifice for its well being, and sometimes (in fact, usually) one needs to sacrifice their career for the family. That’s life.

>Marrying a successful and ambitious 20-something in no way commits one to be fine with the same ambitious person uprooting family’s life a decade or two later and moving to the other side of the world.

Oh please. The writing was on the wall. If he's playing the "climb the corporate ladder" game nobody should surprised when he draws the "manage the Mongolian division" card. Expecting him to give that up when climbing the corporate ladder is the life he's chosen is somewhere on the spectrum from foolish to selfish.

Likewise if your boyfriend is mechanically inclined don't wake up one day complaining about the fleet of project cars and the heavy equipment that are cluttering up your property. You knew that was the life you were signing up for looked like.

There's a reason literally every culture has a litany of proverbs for women about not trying to change their men (and there's similiar but different proverbs for men).

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People expect a fairy tale, when they're signing up for a job. Nope. BS. And I am saying this as a guy with one failed marriage and now with a super happy one going stronger than before even, 8 years down the line. Stop perpetuating work ethic when it comes to feelings and partnership, please. Relationships can be beautiful in literally every way. Maybe just keep looking and don't generalize because that makes you…

It's not so much work ethic as it is mental discipline. If you have not mastered yourself when it comes to the dishes, you cannot master yourself in tough periods of life, and so on. You have to be present in each moment, regardless of whether it's doing dishes or having the best day of your life.

IMO part of a relationship is to grow and develop together. If somebody stubbornly decides they are already as perfect as they can ever be, then the results -- them being lonely -- are predictable.

And yep, being present and aware is absolutely critical, I agree with you.

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#599
post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Translated into a slightly different venue: if partner A's sense of order is jarred by laundry near, and not in, hamper, but partner B just doesn't care, then the steady state is A always cleaning up after B. A's happiness depends on a certain degree of order in the shared space, and B is oblivious to that degree of order. Or more likely, it requires a conscious exercise of effort to perceive the degree of order. If…

My partner tends to "ruminate" on making phone calls - setting up appointments, customer service stuff, etc. I am on the phone all day for work, so it's no big deal for me to deal with the calls. Sometimes, I ask my partner to make a call. Most times, she doesn't do it within the agreed upon time period. I either do it myself, she gets to it E V E N T U A L L Y, or it doesn't get done. I used to fight about this beca…

Could be your partner's inaction on making phone calls mean some sort of lack of confidence?

Re: A dirty dish by the sink can be a big marriage problem

#600

About 10 years ago, I had a internship at Newell Rubbermaid. As part of the experience, the entire group of interns across all the brands got to have lunch with the CEO and basically ask him anything we wanted. At some point, someone asked about his biggest regret. We all expected some business blunder, but he said that he was offered an executive position by Kraft to lead their Asian segment, and that his wife reall…

Maybe this is my pessimistic view, but most relationships don't last. Some of the ones that do last only because of complacency or discipline (but they arguably should dissolve).

Conscious memory seems to favor the positives. Unconscious memory favors the negatives. If you quickly raise your hand near a person who has been physically abused a child, even as an adult they may instinctively recoil. But if you ask someone about their lost relationship, they will often speak of the great things of their partner, ignoring the (perhaps incomprehensible or inarticulable) negatives.

Life is hopefully quite long. Relationships involve 2 (+?) people. During one's life, one hopefully changes a lot. Picture vectors in two dimensions. People who pair up are vectors that cross at one moment (brief) or run somewhat parallel for a period. Try as we might, adjusting our trajectories, it's practically impossible to maintain a parallel path without giving up some or all of our own development.

So realistically in our modern times, relationships are based on a period of relatively parallel trajectories. And when the distance between those vectors becomes to great, it's time to stop trying to maintain a connection. That involves some feelings of sadness, but it also offers new possibilities.

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