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The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

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Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#171

Post by pmoriarty »

at_a_remove wrote: post #157
mmaunder wrote: post #68

I’m constantly amazed at how Metaverse aficionados quote Snow Crash and and other 1990s works as cornerstones of cyberspace, when Gibson invented the term and Neuromancer was written in 1984. Gibson is the original. The passage where Case connects to the matrix (also a Gibson term) again for the first time once his nervous system is repaired is heartbreakingly beautiful. I relate to it as a young phone phreak growing…

Gibson has a cameo in Wild Palms . PAIGE: This is William Gibson, Harry. HARRY: Oh, yeah... Neuromancer , right? PAIGE: He invented the word "cyberspace." GIBSON: And they'll never let me forget it.

Wow. Wild Palms.... I don't hear that one mentioned often (or ever). Glad to hear I'm not the only one who's seen this weird, obscure, flawed gem of a series.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#172

Post by dleslie »

the_af wrote: post #17

One thing I read somewhere -- and it might have been an interview with Gibson or with someone else talking about his work -- is how much William Gibson despises derivatives of cyberpunk in the books, videogames and movies that followed. Specifically, he dislikes the focus on the aesthetic, neon lights, mirror shades, etc. I think Gibson really dislikes Cyberpunk 2077, for example. Gibson argued they are missing the p…

Cyberpunk 2077 receives too much grief for its rejection of the mainstream state of affairs, making it quite punk. IMHO.

The crux of the story, the full arc and conclusion of your character, is that you are a nobody who seeks to become an influencer, comes to believe that you have a big role to play in world events, but ultimately even your greatest possible achievements amount to being either inconsequential or the result of manipulations of ever more powerful forces. You start a nobody, and you die a nobody. The game's NPCs spend a fair amount of time reflecting on valuing the relationships of the present and honoring the memory of those lost; even throughout the side quests. (One of my favourites involving a misunderstanding arising from seeking to be accepted and pursuing plastic surgery, only to discover that the partner loves who they are and not what they look like).

And yes, there are the pervasive themes of the commodification of the human body, the objectification of not only the physical but the emotional experience as well. Human limbs are bought and sold, whole body replacements are common, memories are recorded and shared, a recording of the end of life is itself a hot commodity.

The game is thick with themes that condemn our indifferent, plastic and superficial culture.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#173

Post by kemayo »

> When Gibson penned his opening line ‘the sky above the port was the colour of television, tuned to a dead channel’ he merged reality and the digital in a way that seems almost prophetic today

Tangentially, I find the generational aspect of that line fun. Depending on how old the person you're talking to is, this will mean (as originally meant) a gray/staticy color, or a searingly vivid blue, (or, I guess, something else like a graphical "no signal found" screen in the most modern interpretations).

As with much sci-fi, it's a story of "the future" that's thoroughly grounded in the present day it was written in.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#174

Post by Keyframe »

nurbl wrote: post #74
throw1234651234 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gibson pioneered the genre - you have to give him that. He is very much off on a lot of details though. For example, in his other books, his descriptions of mercenaries are comical at best for anyone who has a passing familiarity with the topic. Nonetheless, I place him up there with Stephenson. All this DESPITE the fact that Stephenson stands in a league of his own - he pioneered "post cyberpunk" with Diamond Age an…

Having not managed to finish a Stephenson book since "Snow Crash" (which I liked) i may not be in the best position to recommend something to you, but I really like Greg Egan. Truly idea-driven SF which also has interesting enough characters and story. I also like that his books are pretty short, even his trilogy is probably shorter than any single Stephenson book. Very little "fluff".

Anything in particular you'd recommend? First time I hear about the guy.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#175

Post by indigochill »

the_af wrote: post #17

One thing I read somewhere -- and it might have been an interview with Gibson or with someone else talking about his work -- is how much William Gibson despises derivatives of cyberpunk in the books, videogames and movies that followed. Specifically, he dislikes the focus on the aesthetic, neon lights, mirror shades, etc. I think Gibson really dislikes Cyberpunk 2077, for example. Gibson argued they are missing the p…

IIRC, the Cyberpunk RPG is explicitly all about the aesthetic. I find it obnoxious personally, but on some level I respect that it knows what it wants to be and is that. I do think it's a certain strain of punk, but a different one than the more politically-minded Gibson punk.

I suspect you could combine the "vaguely Japanese inspired retrofuturistic aesthetics" with a more modern political critique. To some extent, I feel like the original Deus Ex game is still relevant as it tangles with the corruption of power and how technology enables that process, which is more relevant than ever.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#176

Post by TedDoesntTalk »

mindcrime wrote: post #122
JKCalhoun wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not his 1973 novel "The Shockwave Rider"?

The Shockwave Rider should definitely be considered something like "proto Cyberpunk" IMO. And regardless of that, I'd absolutely recommend it to anyone who hasn't read it yet. I just picked up a copy of Stand on Zanzibar , looking forward to getting into that soon.

The film "Heavy Metal" from 1981 also had some of this aesthetic. So did the magazine counterpart (still in print!)

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#177

Post by pmoriarty »

kemayo wrote: post #167
scrapheap wrote: post #15

If you liked Neuromancer then you should read True Names by Vernor Vinge.

It's impressive because it's ~3 years before Neuromancer, and in many ways it's a better predictor of "the internet" as a cultural thing. It nails a lot of the social aspects of online forums, for instance. It lacks the raw style of Neuromancer, alas.

E. M. Forster predicted something like the internet and online forums in 1909 in The Machine Stops.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#178

Post by rektide »

pmoriarty wrote: post #58
ethbr0 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd imagine looking back, a lot of Neuromancer and pre-ubiquitous web Cyberpunk reads weirdly because it was written in an information-scarce world. Versus the information-excess world we now live in. In the former, I remember concepts being so much bigger and more concrete. E.g. the "War on Drugs" or "Reaganomics". These were things that existed because powerful people said they did. And there was debating, but idea…

"I'd imagine looking back, a lot of Neuromancer and pre-ubiquitous web Cyberpunk reads weirdly because it was written in an information-scarce world." There's just as much scarcity of valuable information today... it's just that now it's buried under a mountain of garbage which is more accessible than ever before.

That information glut, if it does so exist, leads more towards dis-belief imo & skepticism, especially in the main.

Yeah there's a lot of meme-viruses, num shrubs, other ways to go wrong or really wrong. Radicalization happens. Before we didnt used to be connected enough to see this shit, and the asymetric nature of the loud & shitty versus the peaceful/coherent/quiet/skeptical mainstream means the delusional & extremists have outsized visibility.

The disbelief keeps growing. We dont need Adbusters as much because the thin transparency of the world, of being sold garbage mounds of low-grade content is well known, we understand how shallow things are. And disbelief keeps rising.

In contrast to the higher trust, respected mainstream media, the limited availability of information which came before. Which gel'ed the world into place, which created shared beliefs & allowed agendas to be driven. Where-as now the all-defector anti-agenda is the default mode for many.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#179

Post by anotherman554 »

jmyeet wrote: post #29

I was honestly underwhelmed by Neuromancer. Maybe because so many people raved about it or that I read it many years after it was written. I honestly don't know. It was... OK. But amazing? I don't see it. I love science fiction. One thing you have to realize about science ficiton is that it is a product of the time it was written. It may share many of the aesthetics, themes, philosophies and politics of that time. Li…

"Cyberpunk as a genre stems from xenophobia, ultimately"

Why does mega-corporation mean Xenophobia against the Japanese? Bladerunner, which came out around the same time, has mega-corporations which aren't run by the Japanese. So does Robocop. The second Sprawl book and third Sprawl book both have wealthy villains who are not Japanese.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#180

Post by mindcrime »

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #176
mindcrime wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Shockwave Rider should definitely be considered something like "proto Cyberpunk" IMO. And regardless of that, I'd absolutely recommend it to anyone who hasn't read it yet. I just picked up a copy of Stand on Zanzibar , looking forward to getting into that soon.

The film "Heavy Metal" from 1981 also had some of this aesthetic. So did the magazine counterpart (still in print!)

You know, I feel silly admitting this, but I still haven't ever watched "Heavy Metal". Now I'm thinking I should make that my top TODO item after work tonight. That's been on "the list" for, like, forever.
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