The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk • Hacker News Board

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#121

Post by mindcrime » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 4:22 PM UTC

JKCalhoun wrote: post #24

> When Gibson penned his opening line ‘the sky above the port was the colour of television, tuned to a dead channel’ he merged reality and the digital in a way that seems almost prophetic today It feels like Gibson was riffing on the vibe created by John Foxx's "Metamatic" [1] in 1980 (never mind his "Ultravox!" [2] in the years before that). Maybe it was Foxx though that claimed he was channelling the mood of novels…

Regarding J.G. Ballard, my understanding is that the early Cyberpunk authors were all absolutely heavily inspired by his works. Somebody (I forget who) said something to the effect of "We were all competing to see who would out-Ballard who".

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#122

Post by mindcrime » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 4:25 PM UTC

JKCalhoun wrote: post #27

runesofdoom wrote: post #22

Anyone interested in the roots of cyberpunk might also be interested in John Brunner's 1968 novel *Stand On Zanzibar*.

Not his 1973 novel "The Shockwave Rider"?

The Shockwave Rider should definitely be considered something like "proto Cyberpunk" IMO. And regardless of that, I'd absolutely recommend it to anyone who hasn't read it yet.

I just picked up a copy of Stand on Zanzibar, looking forward to getting into that soon.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#123

Post by Apocryphon » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 4:25 PM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #116

Apocryphon wrote: post #105

Has anyone read his Bridge trilogy? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge_trilogy > The trilogy derives its name from the San Francisco–Oakland Bay Bridge, which was abandoned in an earthquake and has become a massive shantytown and a site of improvised shelter. Seems sadly two heartbeats into the future for today’s Bay Area

Honestly, this sounds a bit like some of Philip K Dick's work, which was set in the Bay Area after a nuclear war... he wrote it about 50 years before Gibson, though I'm sure Gibson must add something original to the mix. I once asked Gibson whether he was influenced by Philip K Dick, and he said that he didn't read Dick when he was young, and was more influenced by Pynchon instead. Still, despite his denial, he seems…

I just started reading Bleeding Edge, which very much reads like a cyberpunk book in terms of dropping dozens of unelaborated references and allusions, or maybe like Douglas Coupland. Though I’d say it feels more like one of Bruce Sterling’s lighter works- Zeitgeist in particular- than something more like classic cyberpunk. (I’ve always associated the genre with brand-dropping, though that happens a ton in John Brunner’s work, which predates Gibson.) Independently, Pynchon also does that often, even in his novels not about high technology.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#124

Post by pmoriarty » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 4:25 PM UTC

gpderetta wrote: post #114

throw1234651234 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gibson pioneered the genre - you have to give him that. He is very much off on a lot of details though. For example, in his other books, his descriptions of mercenaries are comical at best for anyone who has a passing familiarity with the topic. Nonetheless, I place him up there with Stephenson. All this DESPITE the fact that Stephenson stands in a league of his own - he pioneered "post cyberpunk" with Diamond Age an…

Personally I think that Gibson is vastly superior to Stephenson. As for recommendations about post-cyberpunk: our own cstross has written plenty of great books (Accelerando in primis); I've liked anything that Peter Watts as written so far (Blindsight is the most famous, but the rifters saga is also good and the Sunflower cycles is excellent). Alastair Reynolds writing is very uneven, but world building is excellent…

Both Egan and Vinge have been very disappointing to me. I read them because they wrote a lot about the singularity, but found them to be extremely boring, dry and unimaginative. Stephenson's Snow Crash was also very underwhelming.

I'm more of a fan of Dick, Herbert, and Lem.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#125

Post by BTCOG » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 4:25 PM UTC

the_af wrote: post #17

One thing I read somewhere -- and it might have been an interview with Gibson or with someone else talking about his work -- is how much William Gibson despises derivatives of cyberpunk in the books, videogames and movies that followed. Specifically, he dislikes the focus on the aesthetic, neon lights, mirror shades, etc. I think Gibson really dislikes Cyberpunk 2077, for example. Gibson argued they are missing the p…

This is contrary to numerous interviews where Gibson praises aesthetic and for example, says that Blade Runner spot-on nailed what he was going for with Neuromancer. Gibson all throughout Neuromancer equally himself focuses, almost hyper-focuses on surface textures and visual aesthetic to juxtapose antique forms and purpose with high tech modern materials. It would seemingly be at odds for him to not like aesthetic and neon and city "Sprawl" after going to lengths to directly praise Ridley-Scott's "spot-on" interpretations.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#126

Post by ascagnel_ » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 4:27 PM UTC

the_af wrote: post #17

One thing I read somewhere -- and it might have been an interview with Gibson or with someone else talking about his work -- is how much William Gibson despises derivatives of cyberpunk in the books, videogames and movies that followed. Specifically, he dislikes the focus on the aesthetic, neon lights, mirror shades, etc. I think Gibson really dislikes Cyberpunk 2077, for example. Gibson argued they are missing the p…

> I think Gibson really dislikes Cyberpunk 2077, for example. Gibson argued they are missing the point, staying shallow and forgetting the "message", which was PUNK: a rebellion and a rejection of the mainstream state of affairs. Gibson was a punk writer, and his writing was a critique of Reaganomics and the direction the world was going back then.

I'd argue that another game released in 2020 understood the "punk" part of cyberpunk much better than CP2077 -- Umurangi Generation. Instead of giving you a gun, the game gives you a camera, and tells you to go out and document how everyday people are reacting to the end of the world. The game was primarily inspired by the early 2020 brushfires in Australia, while its add-on DLC pack Macro was heavily influenced by the protests following the death of George Floyd, and both heavily criticize how the state misleads, reassures, and generally fails to respond to dire situations.

Errant Signal did an excellent deep-dive (and spoiler-filled) video essay on the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ctkeq8IpdQA

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#127

Post by pydry » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 4:27 PM UTC

the_af wrote: post #69

yike321123 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, the majority of derivatives of the cyberpunk genre I've seen have all usually been cheap cash grabs with less than any real messaging behind it. I guess to say it more plainly it's what you see the rock or rap genres of today as. While very few people "innovate" just like the music industry the writing industry is a monopoly full of those whose only interest is in revenue generation and shiny lights rather…

> "the majority of derivatives of the cyberpunk genre I've seen have all usually been cheap cash grabs with less than any real messaging behind it" Agreed, and it's important to note that the message "evil corporations are greedy and use tech in soulless and alienating ways" used to be a radical message but it's not anymore. Now it's just a trope. So I disagree with what some are saying that cyberpunk is currently us…

>Agreed, and it's important to note that the message "evil corporations are greedy and use tech in soulless and alienating ways" used to be a radical message but it's not anymore.

"The Nazis are evil" is also an overused trope and is hardly radical but by reusing it it helps protect us on a civilizational level from actual nazis.

Tropes can be sort of like cultural T cells. I'd rather see more "nazis are bad" and cyberpunk stories and less disney shit for this reason alone.

It'll start getting old for me when the risk of it coming true goes away.

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#128

Post by hindsightbias » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 4:30 PM UTC

jmyeet wrote: post #29

I was honestly underwhelmed by Neuromancer. Maybe because so many people raved about it or that I read it many years after it was written. I honestly don't know. It was... OK. But amazing? I don't see it. I love science fiction. One thing you have to realize about science ficiton is that it is a product of the time it was written. It may share many of the aesthetics, themes, philosophies and politics of that time. Li…

Gibson admired the new (Japan) and the old (England). Perhaps the genre is xenophobic, but I don't think that's his bent:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2001/apr/01/sciencefiction...

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#129

Post by EugeneOZ » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 4:30 PM UTC

I’ll write my comment to outweigh the negativity towards the game.

I’m still enjoying the game, still riding through Night City, finding new details every day: in the roads, tunnels, on the walls. A random pedestrian might have some link to a book or a movie - you just need to check their clothes and phrases. So exciting.

REDEngine is great - of course, performance is awful, but the idea of ray-traced lights is great and it looks amazing. Also, the details level and the skin rendering - are truly amazing.

Of course, the game needs more, much more work - to make it more entertaining, deeper. But still, it's an interesting world, and I’m pretty sure the price was fair.

One of the most interesting and entertaining parts for me: Cyber Engine Tweaks. Some days I spend more times for hacking than playing:)

Re: The Influence of Neuromancer on Cyberpunk

#130

Post by pmoriarty » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 4:32 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #94

throw1234651234 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gibson pioneered the genre - you have to give him that. He is very much off on a lot of details though. For example, in his other books, his descriptions of mercenaries are comical at best for anyone who has a passing familiarity with the topic. Nonetheless, I place him up there with Stephenson. All this DESPITE the fact that Stephenson stands in a league of his own - he pioneered "post cyberpunk" with Diamond Age an…

Bruce Sterling should also be remembered as a major contributor to the formation of the genre, on par with Gibson and Stephenson. Islands in the Net grounded future speculative tech in emerging real-world geopolitics, and Schismatrix took the genre into far future space, introducing the concept of cybernetics vs. biological augmentation.

Also see Greg Bear's Blood Music, which came out a year before Neuromancer.

There was also an early book about VR, which I can't remember the name of. It was about a reviewer of "apples" which gave the people who ate them something like a VR experience.

Finally, the grandaddy of all of these was The Machine Stops[1], by E. M. Forster. Written in 1909, it predicted virtual reality, something like the internet, internet addiction, chat rooms, and more.

[1] - https://web.cs.ucdavis.edu/~rogaway/classes/188/materials/th...