37% of jobs in the United States can be performed entirely at home • Hacker News Board

Re: 37% of jobs in the United States can be performed entirely at home

#251

Post by 30367286 » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 5:34 PM UTC

tharkun__ wrote: post #229

30367286 wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is a sufficient compromise, in your view, that satisfies the need of some workers to have regular face to face interactions with coworkers and prevents corporations unprepared to manage a remote team from whipping back to full in-office? I do not want to put words in your mouth, but since you offered so few of them, I am tempted to believe you are one of the few lucky workers who has sufficient leverage to whole…

A sufficient compromise would be to allow the people that want regular face to face interactions with coworkers to go to the office and do just that. Not sure what the culture is in your place but at my place everyone has their video on in calls, so there's always face-to-face communication (exceptions can apply of course in some circumstances but that is the general rule) that way. People that want that do go to the…

> But they do it with like minded people

This is the main problem I see with your compromise. The self-sorting will create or enforce existing silos. The compromise is not only between you and your employer, but also between you and your coworkers. You might derive no value from face to face interaction, but your coworkers certainly do — and that includes you.

I suspect that this self-sorting will result in a very loud cohort of in-office workers demanding everyone come back, which spoils the whole deal.

Re: 37% of jobs in the United States can be performed entirely at home

#252

Post by chasd00 » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 5:35 PM UTC

didip wrote: post #176

The society has a once-a-lifetime opportunity to refactor how it can work, but it squandered it. Imagine if office buildings are no longer necessary. A lot more hi-rise apartments can be built, cities can be a lot more dense, and light rails can be attractive again.

high rise apartments are really just office buildings. Just live at the office, it's pretty much equivalent.

Re: 37% of jobs in the United States can be performed entirely at home

#253

Post by Apocryphon » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 5:35 PM UTC

spookthesunset wrote: post #152

kube-system wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what is happening. Over the past 2 years, people have left cities with solid public transit (SF, Chicago, NYC) and have been moving towards car centric areas in places like Arizona, Florida, Texas.

Yup. We are reversing a lot of efforts society put into reducing sprawl. More and more cookie cutter houses built on what was once a forest… taking with it tons of wildlife.

This was already happening prior to WFH spurred by pandemic. Housing prices were sharply increasing in many major cities, causing people to relocate elsewhere due to lack of affordable supply.

Re: 37% of jobs in the United States can be performed entirely at home

#254

Post by scruple » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 5:36 PM UTC

heassler wrote: post #192

mwattsun wrote: post #67

5 of us wrote Microsoft Works for the Macintosh while working at home from 1984 to 1992. Without the internet, we got together as needed to merge code, usually once a month, but sometimes once a week. We talked on the phone. We went to Microsoft once in awhile. It was ideal and worked very well. Maybe it was just our personalities that made it work, but I am astonished that any programmer would rather go into the off…

Going to the office means getting to know the people you work with to a meaningful level (there are other opportunities to do that besides meetings, such as having lunch together or going out for a coffee/walk) in a way that is simply not possible when chatting via google meets. But there’s also the increased exposure to serendipity. Unexpected things occur in the office. Maybe you overhear a conversation that makes…

> Going to the office means getting to know the people you work with to a meaningful level

In 15 years in this industry, I have only developed a handful of deep relationships with former and current colleagues. The vast majority of my own work relationships have been superficial. I'm a card carrying member of the over sharer's club, and yet so many of my colleagues throughout the years don't know that I'm originally from Ohio by way of Pennsylvania... That I'm a military veteran... That I'm a strength and endurance athlete, etc. Maybe that says something about me, but I don't think I'm an outlier.

Some of the people I've worked with were utterly contemptible and, while I maintained a professional relationship with them at work, myself and many others were inwardly happy to see them go when the time came. I think we all know plenty of cantankerous assholes who we've had to call team mate, colleague, or worse, manager / boss.

We work here together for a (usually brief, in the grand scheme of things) period of time and that's often the only glue that holds the majority of us together.

One of the deepest and most impactful relationships I have forged through a shared working environment is a person who lives in Argentina and who I have never met in person. No office required, just the Internet.

Re: 37% of jobs in the United States can be performed entirely at home

#255

Post by rebeccaskinner » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 5:37 PM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #218

ethbr0 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd spin this around and cast it as a challenge -- regular, forced interactions with coworkers is minimally sufficient and retards some people from pursuing social activities outside the home. There are already a number of options in even the smallest town. I expect that will increase as more people move to WFH and seek social outlets. And at the end of the day "interacting with coworkers in the break room" is a pret…

I don't particularly enjoy the forced, stilted chatter but I do get a lot of value from: a) Being obliged to put on clothes and leave the house. b) Spending a large part of the day at a change of scenery. c) Having other people there, around, ambiently. Spending 23 hours a day alone in your room + 1 hour for outdoor exercise, with occasional weekend visitation, is among the worst punishments the state has at its disp…

You are viewing remote work through the particular circumstance of the pandemic. Remote work before covid was very different, and I expect in time we'll get back to a lot of that.

I worked remotely before the pandemic, and most days I still have ample opportunities to meet and talk to people. Most weeks I'd attend a meetup (I'm in a small city in the midwest and we still had plenty of events to cater to most any niche technical interest you'd care to name). A couple of times a month I'd meet up with other remote workers for lunch at a restaurant somewhere convenient to all of us. I regularly hosted, or attended, game nights with friends I met- mostly through the meetups.

I was never one for coworking spaces, and I don't even have a lot of non-development hobbies that had me meeting other people, and I still managed to have a pretty rich social life and meet people, make friends, and even got some of the sorts of creative boosts people claim only come from in-office working (because you talk to people about what problems they work on, or their interests, and it sparks ideas for how to apply those to your own work).

Things right now are still bleak because of the pandemic. It sucks, and it sucks worse knowing that this could have been over by now if the response hadn't been so universally mishandled, but a lot of what sucks about the pandemic will continue to suck- or suck differently but the same amount, if you go back to an office. Remote work isn't for everyone, and you really might still find that all things being equal the office just works best for you, and that's fine, but don't confuse "the pandemic sucks" for "remote work sucks".

Re: 37% of jobs in the United States can be performed entirely at home

#256

Post by Animats » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 5:39 PM UTC

If everything you do goes in and out over a wire, some day your job will be either automated or offshored.

Re: 37% of jobs in the United States can be performed entirely at home

#257

Post by chasd00 » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 5:40 PM UTC

warning26 wrote: post #7

api wrote: post #4

Now think about the economic savings in the areas of energy and capital depreciation on cars. The overall economic efficiency boost from this could be unbelievably huge, not to mention the environmental benefits of less routine commuting. I wouldn't be surprised if this approves economic efficiency by trillions of dollars.

If only there were some way to transport people that wasn’t cars!

no matter the transportation mechanism it still takes time. Unless someone can invent a star trek'esque transporter the commute will always suck.

Re: 37% of jobs in the United States can be performed entirely at home

#258

Post by cwmoreiras » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 5:40 PM UTC

shagie wrote: post #200

cwmoreiras wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So do you think it's fine that people spend hours each day in service of their company and not getting paid for it?

This gets to the question "what is the employer paying for?" Let me flip your question around - do you think that it is fine that one person is paid extra to live 2h away or that they should be paid twice what I get paid for effectively the same time spent in service of the company because I only have a 10 minute commute? Alternatively, consider the person who commutes into the office 1h each way while I'm WFH and ha…

Your examples have a level of granularity that borders on absurdity. We all know that what it comes down to is this: Company makes an offer, i.e. "One of the perks of this job is you receive a 2 hour daily commute stipend". Employee accepts or rejects that offer.

Re: 37% of jobs in the United States can be performed entirely at home

#259

Post by Cd00d » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 5:40 PM UTC

heassler wrote: post #192

mwattsun wrote: post #67

5 of us wrote Microsoft Works for the Macintosh while working at home from 1984 to 1992. Without the internet, we got together as needed to merge code, usually once a month, but sometimes once a week. We talked on the phone. We went to Microsoft once in awhile. It was ideal and worked very well. Maybe it was just our personalities that made it work, but I am astonished that any programmer would rather go into the off…

Going to the office means getting to know the people you work with to a meaningful level (there are other opportunities to do that besides meetings, such as having lunch together or going out for a coffee/walk) in a way that is simply not possible when chatting via google meets. But there’s also the increased exposure to serendipity. Unexpected things occur in the office. Maybe you overhear a conversation that makes…

The serendipity point is interesting.

A few years ago I had my team's desks moved to be next to our sales team. I wanted to overhear their conversations and phone calls to get a deeper understanding of client feedback and how clients used our product. It worked out well, and we got into a much better place in terms of feedback and requests.

During covid I've also had a very strong indicator of how clients view our product - the entire sales team quit over time.

Re: 37% of jobs in the United States can be performed entirely at home

#260

Post by chasd00 » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 5:43 PM UTC

Overtonwindow wrote: post #197

Working from home is great and all, but do we really want work to be within our home? I’ve been working from home the entire pandemic, and I still find it hard to stop working and “be home.”

that definitely has to be managed well. I wfh in a room where i also do my hobbies and stuff (like a tiny workshop more or less). What i do is when i'm done with work i put my company issued laptop in a dedicated drawer and close it. When the drawer closes my mind flips to "i'm at home" mode. The next morning, when i open teh drawer, my mind flips to "i'm at work" mode. It works for me but may not work for everyone.