37% of jobs in the United States can be performed entirely at home • Hacker News Board

Re: 37% of jobs in the United States can be performed entirely at home

#161

Post by PaulDavisThe1st » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 4:03 PM UTC

stefan_ wrote: post #18

But then the jig is up, no? I thought that was an amazing moment when recently the NYC mayor asked CEOs to "help get workers back to the office". It's not about the work, it's not about the city, it's about making sure real estate doesn't crash and those campaign contributions can keep coming.

In most surveys of this, there are substantial numbers of people who want to get back to the office. That doesn't mean we should ignore the people who don't want to, but the opposite is also true.

It's also about the other businesses that are enabled by having significant number of non-at-home workers in the neighborhood. I'm not saying that this should outweigh or override anything else, but I am saying you don't have to be this cynical.

Re: 37% of jobs in the United States can be performed entirely at home

#162

Post by 30367286 » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 4:03 PM UTC

ethbr0 wrote: post #121

Adraghast wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I assume that some people are just very lonely and need face to face Anecdata from Hacker News suggests this is true. A lot of lonely young men here freely admit their coworkers are the only people they regularly interact with in-person, and remote work takes that away from them.

I'd spin this around and cast it as a challenge -- regular, forced interactions with coworkers is minimally sufficient and retards some people from pursuing social activities outside the home. There are already a number of options in even the smallest town. I expect that will increase as more people move to WFH and seek social outlets. And at the end of the day "interacting with coworkers in the break room" is a pret…

>I'd spin this around and cast it as a challenge -- regular, forced interactions with coworkers is minimally sufficient and retards some people from pursuing social activities outside the home.

Absolutely. Additionally, even getting to that set of regular, forced interactions necessarily consumes the limited time those people would have to pursue those social activities outside the home. That is, it's hard to have a strong social life when you commute, at best, 5 hours a week. And that's if you're lucky.

All of this benefits corporations. Especially, insidiously, the notion that your job can and should double as your social life.

What concerns me, today, is that that we're in this middle stage where things could tip either way. For this reason, I think it's important for us to bang the drum loudly that we won't spend 40-50 hours in the office. Hybrid is a sufficient compromise.

Re: 37% of jobs in the United States can be performed entirely at home

#163

Post by mumblemumble » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 4:03 PM UTC

Adraghast wrote: post #100

mwattsun wrote: post #67

5 of us wrote Microsoft Works for the Macintosh while working at home from 1984 to 1992. Without the internet, we got together as needed to merge code, usually once a month, but sometimes once a week. We talked on the phone. We went to Microsoft once in awhile. It was ideal and worked very well. Maybe it was just our personalities that made it work, but I am astonished that any programmer would rather go into the off…

> I assume that some people are just very lonely and need face to face Anecdata from Hacker News suggests this is true. A lot of lonely young men here freely admit their coworkers are the only people they regularly interact with in-person, and remote work takes that away from them.

It's more than that. I'm mid-life, with kids, meaning that my best opportunity for getting out of the house on a regular basis is while they're at school. Without that, days can go by without a significant change of scenery, especially in winter when spending evenings at the park isn't a great option.

I'm not lonely, per se, but, all the same, the pandemic has been very, very difficult for me. I went from being a longtime remote worker who went to a coworking space most days, to what has sometimes felt like two years of house arrest.

I agree that going in to an office - especially an open plan one where they pack desks end-to-end in giant noisy rooms - is a less-than-stellar option, too. But I also suspect that many people's newfound love of WFH is fueled in part by the novelty of the experience, and that the shine will wear off after a couple more years.

Re: 37% of jobs in the United States can be performed entirely at home

#164

Post by Someone1234 » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 4:03 PM UTC

Cederfjard wrote: post #92

mwattsun wrote: post #67

5 of us wrote Microsoft Works for the Macintosh while working at home from 1984 to 1992. Without the internet, we got together as needed to merge code, usually once a month, but sometimes once a week. We talked on the phone. We went to Microsoft once in awhile. It was ideal and worked very well. Maybe it was just our personalities that made it work, but I am astonished that any programmer would rather go into the off…

Some people also don’t have living conditions at home that are conducive to being productive. Not everyone can afford the space to have a proper home office, for example.

> Not everyone can afford the space to have a proper home office, for example.

Because they have to live in expensive urban areas near their workplace. Their money would stretch much further if they could remote-work from rural areas.

Re: 37% of jobs in the United States can be performed entirely at home

#165

Post by coldpie » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 4:04 PM UTC

sharemywin wrote: post #20

paulcole wrote: post #5

100% of the jobs I want to do can be performed entirely at home, but I prefer to do 100% of them in an office.

Not trying to be sarcastic. I genuinely asking. Why? I'm not a fan of the office because: 1. I don't like the commute 2. I have an office in my house, but at the "office"; I would be sharing some kind of space. 3. now that covid is less of an issue I plan on going to lunch more with freinds.

Man, I love my commute. Losing that was one of the hardest parts of the year I spent WFH. I take the bus to work, it's about 40 minutes each way. I get time outside, I get to watch the sun rise, I spend that time reading library books and magazines, sometimes I talk with strangers for a few minutes, I stop off on my way home to get new library books or at a shop for whatever, or sometimes hit a bar on the way home. My commute rules, don't take it away from me.

Re: 37% of jobs in the United States can be performed entirely at home

#166

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 4:06 PM UTC

I'm pretty skeptical of this methodology. They don't seem to be making any attempt to measure whether a job can be done effectively from home, only whether it's prohibited by some physical necessity. "Managers, educators, and those working in computers, finance, and law are largely able to work from home", but is having your teacher or lawyer on a little iPad really a complete substitute for having them right in front of you?

I guess I'm not sure how I would do it better, but that doesn't make it super meaningful.

Re: 37% of jobs in the United States can be performed entirely at home

#167

Post by samstave » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 4:06 PM UTC

stevenhubertron wrote: post #63

I don’t hate working in an office. I hate working in an “open plan” office where someone is always interrupting my work.

its funny, when working at Intel, one of the things people bitched about was the cubicles. (1998)

I hate open offices, but having worked in all formats, open offices are bad for mental health.

When working on MPK West for FB, they built an open office to house 3,000 employees with only 5 offices (with escape hatches) for the c-suite.

Re: 37% of jobs in the United States can be performed entirely at home

#168

Post by mwattsun » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 4:07 PM UTC

headmelted wrote: post #89

mwattsun wrote: post #67

5 of us wrote Microsoft Works for the Macintosh while working at home from 1984 to 1992. Without the internet, we got together as needed to merge code, usually once a month, but sometimes once a week. We talked on the phone. We went to Microsoft once in awhile. It was ideal and worked very well. Maybe it was just our personalities that made it work, but I am astonished that any programmer would rather go into the off…

If you don't mind my asking, have you spent much of your time since then working from home or in an office? I likewise very much prefer working from home and find I get more done, but wanting to get an idea of what it's like from someone who's seen and done both over the long term.

Works was my first job out of the Navy in 84, so I had no prior office experience. I spent 94' to 2000 working in 4 separate offices for 3 different companies. I remember my first office experience I brought in a cot. People looked at me like I was insane. Well, I guess power naps are out of the question. Then I was exposed to office politics for the first time. Some people walk around hating each other all day. What a downer that was. Some women (and some men) would interrupt me to flirt with me. I didn't mind that so much. Then I would be in deep focus fixing some problem and they'd flash the lights because it was someone's birthday and we all had to go to the conference room because it was someone's birthday and there was cake and ice cream. Again, I didn't mind that so much. I felt for all these reasons and many more I was less productive in an office than I was at home. The office to me is a place a lot of people like because they can f around with their office friends.

Edit: I never worked in an office again after I resumed programming after the dotcom bubble burst. Another anecdote: I got called into HR because someone complained I was yawning too loudly.

Re: 37% of jobs in the United States can be performed entirely at home

#169

Post by 30367286 » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 4:08 PM UTC

WYepQ4dNnG wrote: post #122

Adraghast wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I assume that some people are just very lonely and need face to face Anecdata from Hacker News suggests this is true. A lot of lonely young men here freely admit their coworkers are the only people they regularly interact with in-person, and remote work takes that away from them.

That's true, but also very sad. I am lucky enough to have a lovely wife, kids and just enough good friends. And that's all I care about. I don't really miss at all the office, let alone my co-workers. Working remote is just what I need, and I am way more productive.

>Working remote is just what I need, and I am way more productive.

I acknowledge that you and many others derive personal satisfaction from productivity. I do too. However, I strongly believe we should move away from productivity as the measure of whether we should work from home. Primarily because it individualizes productivity and turns any deficits into a moral failing. It is incumbent on our employers to create the conditions which align productivity with our well-being as people, and balance those. Else, we are being exploited.

Put another way, and framing it opposite from what you said:

"Working remote is not what I need because I am less productive" should not be an argument against working from home. You may not need working remotely for other reasons -- social being one of them -- but it's important not to prioritize productivity to the occlusion of all other factors.

Re: 37% of jobs in the United States can be performed entirely at home

#170

Post by weatherlite » Fri, Mar 25, 2022, 4:10 PM UTC

Adraghast wrote: post #100

mwattsun wrote: post #67

5 of us wrote Microsoft Works for the Macintosh while working at home from 1984 to 1992. Without the internet, we got together as needed to merge code, usually once a month, but sometimes once a week. We talked on the phone. We went to Microsoft once in awhile. It was ideal and worked very well. Maybe it was just our personalities that made it work, but I am astonished that any programmer would rather go into the off…

> I assume that some people are just very lonely and need face to face Anecdata from Hacker News suggests this is true. A lot of lonely young men here freely admit their coworkers are the only people they regularly interact with in-person, and remote work takes that away from them.

We are social creatures, there is something quite unnatural only interacting with your wife/kid or worse - with no one else at all, for weeks and months. If not the office, workers are better off using some social working space, but unfortunately WFH is so tempting and easy most will resort to that. Psychologically it's not ideal. Yes the office can be a pain, commute and what not, but loneliness could be worse.