Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory • Hacker News Board

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#231

Post by mrkstu » Tue, Mar 08, 2022, 2:33 PM UTC

toyg wrote: post #175

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see Russia invading and occupying, not annexing Crimea was unambiguously annexed in 2014 [1]. The U.S. hasn’t annexed territory since WWII (the Marshall Islands) or WWI (the Virgin Islands and Kingman Reef). [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_...

They did quite a bit of invading inbetween, though.

Korea/Vietnam- Invited by host governments

Grenada- response to a coup d'e´tat with a multinational force

Panama- technically Noriega declared a state of war first (not the brightest move)

Desert Storm - response to Iraqi invasion/aggression

Haiti - restore democratically elected president

Bosnia- UN sanctioned response to Serbian aggression

Afghanistan- response to Twin Towers - 9/11 aggression. The worst thing we did was actually trying to be 'virtuous' and nation build when we weren't wanted. Get in, decapitate government, make it clear we will rinse and repeat as necessary as long as they host terrorists, leave them alone, with maybe one air base to carry through on the threat if necessary.

Iraq take 2- this is the most questionable one and definitely the most unwise one. Iraq/Saddam had continuously been aggressive post Deseret Storm and hadn't abided by peace terms, so in a legalistic sense, this was justifiable, from pretty much every other sense, moronic.

Libya- National Transition Council was the recognized government at the time of Gaddafi's killing. Supporting any particular faction in the civil war before it played out though, was worse than useless.

Killing of OBL in Pakistan - considering we started an invasion of Afghanistan over him, going after him on Pakistani soil seems rather mild.

Generally it is a pattern of being the world's police and/or avenging attacks, not wars of aggression to capture territory.

Now if you're talking Cold War CIA, then the list of nasty manipulations justified by fear of what the 'bad guys' were doing is a long and not defendable list...

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#232

Post by eadmund » Tue, Mar 08, 2022, 2:35 PM UTC

xxs wrote: post #47

inglor_cz wrote: post #35

In the case that Russia actually collapses as a state ... which is not likely, but cannot be ruled out if they lose this war badly (lost wars are an enormous stress test for authoritarian regimes where the ruler gets all the blame, just look at the collapse of Tsarist Russia in 1917) ... a lot of territory would be up to grabs. Kaliningrad could transform to a puppet state of the EU, removing a serious gap in its ter…

>Kaliningrad could transform to a puppet state of the EU, removing a serious gap in its territorial contiguity. EU is not a country and to my knowledge none of the neighbors wants to join that territory. It's quite a poor region with Russian population... Germans effectively left in the late 40s'

> EU is not a country

I don't know about that. A lot of anti-Brexit folks really seem to have felt loyalty to it the way others feel to their states. It sends ambassadors to other states, so it has its own foreign policy. It doesn't have its own military, yet, but it does have a common defense framework. Seems to me that it is at least a semi-state.

Is the United States one state or fifty plus one?

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#233

Post by belter » Tue, Mar 08, 2022, 2:38 PM UTC

chockchocschoir wrote: post #217

belter wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would seem Russia has more than 300 of these incidents just in 2019. "NATO says Russian aircraft violated European airspace nearly 300 times in 2019" https://taskandpurpose.com/news/russian-aircraft-violate-eur... However I cannot recall any incidents of the type: "French Mirages violate Russian Airspace" "Swedish Grippens's buzz Russian Cruiser..." or "UK Jets cross into Russian airspace" Not saying they do not h…

> Not saying they do not happen, just that I can't recall any. Do you have some examples? You're gonna have to search for news from those countries instead. Try "нарушение воздушного пространства россии" on yandex, or "侵犯中国领空的行为" on baidu. English news hardly ever write about English-speaking countries violating other countries airspace, while the opposite is true too, you won't find news about Russians violating oth…

Tried as you suggested. All I found was propaganda, and one YouTube video that talked about NATO violating Russian airspace. It looked more like the marketing video you send to an Arab Sheikh or African dictator when trying to sell Russian arms.

Do you have a specific event?

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#234

Post by npteljes » Tue, Mar 08, 2022, 2:39 PM UTC

Aethylia wrote: post #28

decremental wrote: post #15

This is different because we like Japan but we don't like Russia. If Russia didn't want the entire world to turn on them, they shouldn't have illegally invaded Afghanistan.

Do we like Japan? They have a shameful history that they have refused to acknowledge. I view them very negatively.

Maybe some don't, but their soft power is impressive. Cool Japan[0] worked well and continues to do so.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cool_Japan

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#235

Post by belter » Tue, Mar 08, 2022, 2:39 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #219

belter wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would seem Russia has more than 300 of these incidents just in 2019. "NATO says Russian aircraft violated European airspace nearly 300 times in 2019" https://taskandpurpose.com/news/russian-aircraft-violate-eur... However I cannot recall any incidents of the type: "French Mirages violate Russian Airspace" "Swedish Grippens's buzz Russian Cruiser..." or "UK Jets cross into Russian airspace" Not saying they do not h…

> Not saying they do not happen, just that I can't recall any. Do you have some examples? The U-2 and SR-71 flew deep into Russia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_U-2_incident We repeatedly enter Russia's ADIZ ( https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/26/politics/russian-fighter-jets... ) and China's ( https://breakingdefense.com/2013/11/chinas-new-defense-zone-... ) and explicitly do not acknowledge other nations' ADIZs for…

Those are correct. But if you have to go back to the 60's and the core of the Cold War with the Soviet Union, I am going to think in the last 20 years there are not many events...

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#236

Post by nullifidian » Tue, Mar 08, 2022, 2:40 PM UTC

WilTimSon wrote: post #210

nullifidian wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Curious that, at least in the case of Georgia That's not entirely true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhaz%E2%80%93Georgian_confli...

Well, from the Wiki: "a militia composed of ethnic Georgians who lived in Abkhazia and Russian-backed separatist forces". Sure, there may be a slice of population that wants to leave but how can that be gouged properly when Russia keeps influencing the people and supplying weapons to separatists? There's a cause and effect here.

The fact is that Abkhazians haven't been fans of the idea of being part of Georgia, even before they were forcibly incorporated into Georgia by the Soviets, and the ethnic strife started before the collapse of the SU, and before the armed conflict (and Russian military assistance) has started. In Spain's Catalonia separatist sentiment can be gauged properly, but does that help with an actual realization of that sentiment? Not much. And that's a highly developed European country, from which Georgia is still very far institutionally, and was even farther in the 90ies.

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#237

Post by dirtyid » Tue, Mar 08, 2022, 2:40 PM UTC

Aethylia wrote: post #28

decremental wrote: post #15

This is different because we like Japan but we don't like Russia. If Russia didn't want the entire world to turn on them, they shouldn't have illegally invaded Afghanistan.

Do we like Japan? They have a shameful history that they have refused to acknowledge. I view them very negatively.

West likes Japan enough to overlook that she has maritime disputes with everyone of her neighbours, including EEZ drama. Which is pretty incredible for 1) and island nation and b) a loser of WW2 that should have territory prescribed through treaty. Including Kurils which USSR annexed and "should" be entitled to as war spoils being a WW2 winner but US/USSR geopolitics got in the way. Also west now: would be good idea Japan remilitarizes despite all these disputes.

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#238

Post by DyslexicAtheist » Tue, Mar 08, 2022, 2:46 PM UTC

belter wrote: post #200

chockchocschoir wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, this is not something that just happened recently, nor just in Japan (nor just by Russia). Airspace of multiple nations gets violated multiple times per year by multiple nations, all the time. Although the timing makes it a bit suspected, I'm sure it's just a general test of "readiness", which happens often.

It would seem Russia has more than 300 of these incidents just in 2019. "NATO says Russian aircraft violated European airspace nearly 300 times in 2019" https://taskandpurpose.com/news/russian-aircraft-violate-eur... However I cannot recall any incidents of the type: "French Mirages violate Russian Airspace" "Swedish Grippens's buzz Russian Cruiser..." or "UK Jets cross into Russian airspace" Not saying they do not h…

another thing that is very rare is that any of these states (apart from RU) shoots down a civil aircraft and then blames it on another country.

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#239

Post by nullifidian » Tue, Mar 08, 2022, 2:46 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #158

mytailorisrich wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crimea it at least 70% ethnic Russian and was Russian until moved to Ukraine without consultation. So I think this is a case where Putin's actions did align with what the people actually wanted even if that's too hard for the West to acknowledge publicly (I'm sure that they accept that Crimea is not going back to Ukraine).

> Crimea it at least 70% ethnic Russian So are parts of Ukraine who are vigorously resisting the Russian invasion. Identity is tricky. Many once ethnic and/or linguistic Russians may choose to identify differently, to be governed differently, and that’s their right. The modern “Russian” ethnicity, as one distinct from e.g. Ukraine, is only a few hundred years old [1]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus '

>So are parts of Ukraine who are vigorously resisting the Russian invasion.

To be pedantic, Ukraine's regular military forces are vigorously resisting the Russian invasion, not parts of Ukraine. Regarding the ethnic and identity composition of Ukraine's military forces -- I have no idea.

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#240

Post by ProjectArcturis » Tue, Mar 08, 2022, 2:48 PM UTC

random_upvoter wrote: post #201

The current situation is already a catastrophe as it is. The best possible outcome at this time is that this war is ended as soon as possible even when this means handing a few victory points to Russia. It is the only way at lot less Ukrainians will die and then I'm just ignoring the potential outcome of further escalation. Nothing the West is doing right now is working towards this outcome. We still seem to believe…

The realpolitik of it is, Russia has blundered into a catastrophe (or, if you prefer, the West provoked it by expanding NATO). Like the Soviets in Afghanistan, it will turn into a grinding, unwinnable quagmire. The thought is that the war will help pull down the Putin regime, like Afghanistan hollowed out the Soviet Union. It also invites anyone with a territorial dispute with Russia to push hard on it now, like the Japanese are doing.

It will be awful for Ukraine, and for the Russian soldiers sent to fight it. But the West's only alternative would be to encourage Ukraine to surrender, which would only tee up Putin's next invasion (Moldova, then the Baltics, then Poland).