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Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

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Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#31

Post by soraminazuki »

lovemenot wrote: post #17
sharikous wrote: post #11

What would be the value (economical, strategical) of those islands for Japan? Apart from the sentimental one?

None whatsoever. But that is exactly the point of reaffirming their claim now. Russia can choose to climb down over something insignificant in order to gain a potential ally. Japan would thereby become a credible broker for peace.

I'm doubtful about Japan becoming allies with the Russians. Japan is an American ally, depends heavily on them for military defense, and the public sentiment is very much against Russia right now.

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#32

Post by jakeinspace »

rjzzleep wrote: post #18
zelphirkalt wrote: post #13

Just yesterday I was thinking: What if others started to grab territory, which Russia claims to be its territory around the world now? Wouldn't that be fortunate timing and overload Russian army? Today I read this.

Just yesterday I was thinking: What if we piss off a nuclear power all around the world now? Wouldn't that be fortunate timing to solve global warming? FTFY. I mean sure we only have another 50 years before the planet is unlivable for us, but why desperately try to accelerate it? EDIT: here is Russias military doctrine from 2000 https://www.armscontrol.org/act/2000-05/russias-military-doc...

The planet will not be unlivable in 50 years. Larger areas of it will be, but most of the landmass will still be hospitable. There may be significant collapse of agricultural production, but again, that will affect the poorer countries mainly. I suppose some massive and unpredictable ecological collapse could conceivably happen by then, which would I guess have the potential of severely damaging food production, but I’m not sure if that’s considered especially likely.

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#33

Post by Hamuko »

bobuk wrote: post #27

I heard that in Russia they consider it's natural to separate parts of the country by people's referendum...

Aren't the islands full of Russian people? I imagine a referendum wouldn't yield a result that was unfavourable to Russia.

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#34

Post by JoachimS »

zelphirkalt wrote: post #13

Just yesterday I was thinking: What if others started to grab territory, which Russia claims to be its territory around the world now? Wouldn't that be fortunate timing and overload Russian army? Today I read this.

Yes. I'm sure some consider Königsberg to have been an exclave for far too long. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%B6nigsberg

And since Putin is talking about restoring old borders, could the Ru visitors in Livland go home now? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Empire

Putin is not the only one who could play this game, and make demands on historical grounds. More modern problems, like Chagos Island should really be solved though. The way UK is acting, and treating the Chagos exiles is quite ugly. IMHO.

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#35

Post by inglor_cz »

In the case that Russia actually collapses as a state ... which is not likely, but cannot be ruled out if they lose this war badly (lost wars are an enormous stress test for authoritarian regimes where the ruler gets all the blame, just look at the collapse of Tsarist Russia in 1917) ... a lot of territory would be up to grabs.

Kaliningrad could transform to a puppet state of the EU, removing a serious gap in its territorial contiguity.

Various Kavkaz ethnicities could vouch for independence.

Tuva (ironically, where Shoigu comes from) is a Buddhist nation that fits into the Mongol-Chinese cultural sphere better than into Russian one.

Vladivostok used to be a Chinese fishing village once, and the Chinese hate the old Unequal Treaties.

Sakhalin is a part of the Japanese archipelago.

Vyborg (Viipuri) and Pechenga (Petsamo) are formerly Finnish territories and even though the irredentism has subsided, they could still be valuable economically. Vyborg is a major port and Pechenga gives access to the Arctic Ocean. Their reconstruction would be a huge money sink, though. Much like reconstruction of the DDR after reunification of Germany.

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#36

Post by robbedpeter »

ceejayoz wrote: post #26
belter wrote: post #22

Technically, Japan and Russia are still at war. "Why Are Japan And Russia Still At War?" https://theowp.org/why-are-japan-and-russia-still-at-war/

No, they aren’t. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet–Japanese_Joint_Declarat... From its text: > The state of war between the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and Japan shall cease on the date on which this Declaration enters into force and peace, friendship and good-neighbourly relations between them shall be restored. The article claims it was never signed. This appears to be entirely made up. There are photos…

>>President Vladimir Putin on the next day.[11] However, the dispute persists,[12][13][14][15] no peace treaty has yet been signed, and the islands remain under Russian administration

Yes they are. Japan never signed.

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#37

Post by tokai »

throwaway_4ever wrote: post #29

Here’s a good heuristic: if the only people alive for the past change of hands are old enough to physically be incapable of being the ones sent to fight for it, the dispute is over as-is. (Why send the young to fight over something that’s never been an issue for them?) Would save us a whole lot of historical grievances, revanchism and war by retconning the past centuries into a new issue.

Hows that a good heuristic? It means never giving anything up and talking about the issue. Just keep sending troops before they get any older.

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#38

Post by belter »

ceejayoz wrote: post #26
belter wrote: post #22

Technically, Japan and Russia are still at war. "Why Are Japan And Russia Still At War?" https://theowp.org/why-are-japan-and-russia-still-at-war/

No, they aren’t. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet–Japanese_Joint_Declarat... From its text: > The state of war between the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and Japan shall cease on the date on which this Declaration enters into force and peace, friendship and good-neighbourly relations between them shall be restored. The article claims it was never signed. This appears to be entirely made up. There are photos…

From the same reference you provided, a declaration was made and it was about regulation of trade and other activities.My Japanese and Russian are a bit rusty. Original is below but do you have French or English version?

https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%20263/v2...

You reference says

"...no peace treaty has yet been signed, and the islands remain under Russian administration"

Edit: Ok. Per this reference it seems the view of the Japanese government is that they ended the state of war.

"...The Joint Declaration by Japan and the USSR of October 19, 1956 ended the state of war and reestablished diplomatic and consular relations between the two countries. In the Joint Declaration, Japan and the USSR agreed to continue negotiations on the conclusion of a peace treaty after the reestablishment of normal diplomatic relations, and the USSR also agreed to hand over the islands of Habomai and Shikotan to Japan after the signing of a peace treaty..."

https://www.mofa.go.jp/region/europe/russia/territory/editio...

Bit I think we are missing in both desks the paper saying Peace Treaty.

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#39

Post by peoplefromibiza »

Aethylia wrote: post #28
decremental wrote: post #15

This is different because we like Japan but we don't like Russia. If Russia didn't want the entire world to turn on them, they shouldn't have illegally invaded Afghanistan.

Do we like Japan? They have a shameful history that they have refused to acknowledge. I view them very negatively.

What about USA or UK then?

Or Belgium or France or Spain or Holland for that matter...

I love Japanese people, they paid and suffered much more than deserved for their past mistakes, contrary to many other empires of the past.

Re: Japan has declared today that the southern Kurils is their sovereign territory

#40

Post by robbedpeter »

robbedpeter wrote: post #36
ceejayoz wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they aren’t. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet–Japanese_Joint_Declarat... From its text: > The state of war between the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and Japan shall cease on the date on which this Declaration enters into force and peace, friendship and good-neighbourly relations between them shall be restored. The article claims it was never signed. This appears to be entirely made up. There are photos…

>>President Vladimir Putin on the next day.[11] However, the dispute persists,[12][13][14][15] no peace treaty has yet been signed, and the islands remain under Russian administration Yes they are. Japan never signed.

Ahh. This was a declaration, mutually signed, that agreed to negotiations for a treaty. No treaty was ever signed, this declaration was.
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