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Four-year-old Israeli child tests positive for polio, first case since 1989

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Re: Four-year-old Israeli child tests positive for polio, first case since 1989

#191

Post by beagle3 »

Arnt wrote: post #180
alignItems wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They succeed in part by insulating their children from Western culture (no TV, no Internet, little interaction with outsiders), and by giving them very little in terms of secular education, so that getting a career is not really an option for most.

Israel permits parents to block basic education of their children?

Unfortunately, for the ultra orthodox, yes. The parliamentary system is a majority coalition, and more often than not, the ultra orthodox parties are the kingmakers, so they get a lot more influence than one would expect.

Specifically, they are exempt from the standard Israeli STEM + foreign language curriculum (which is quite comprehensive - to graduate highschool, you need passing grades in standardized tests that includes -- among other things -- English, Math, at least one of biology/physics/chemistry, literature, history, Hebrew, sometimes bible studies -- depends on the government at the time). You have to have 20 credits among these - at least 3 in English, at least 3 in Math, and there are more requirements).

About 10 years ago, there was a government they were not part of, and this exemption was removed ; but the following cycle, they were kingmakers again and it got reinstated.

Edit: Added some details about the Israeli curriculum.

Re: Four-year-old Israeli child tests positive for polio, first case since 1989

#192

Post by beagle3 »

legulere wrote: post #111
gregwebs wrote: post #5

You might wonder how polio gets reintroduced into Israel or anywhere else. The polio vaccines we currently use are imperfect. The oral vaccine is a weakened form but it mutates in the neighborhood of one in a million cases to become effectively wild polio and some years this accounts for most of the poliomyelitis cases. On the other hand, the fully inactivated injected vaccine is non-sterilizing: it prevents poliomye…

Does Israel even use the oral vaccine? As far as I know all countries that have the basic infrastructure that is needed for the injection one, use that one.

For many years, Israel used both - injection, followed by oral a few years later. At some point, it stopped with the oral - but e.g. in 2013 following some increased sewage levels detected, Israel had a population wide oral vaccine drive[0]

I'm not quite sure what the schedule is right now, but the heavy handed essentially mandated covid vaccination is reported (so far unofficially, official data not yet released) to have caused a non trivial drop in standard vaccine uptake.

Last time Israel had a vaccine mandate was for a short while in the early 50s; Since then, there were no mandate or general requirements e.g. in schools. Uptake was still very high, at over 95% or so until the MMR vaccine scare, which only dented it lightly. Officially and technically, Irsael did not have a covid vaccine mandate - but practically, it did for many people, much like it did in France until a few days ago.

[0] https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1922746117

Re: Four-year-old Israeli child tests positive for polio, first case since 1989

#193

Post by beagle3 »

moonchild wrote: post #12
gregwebs wrote: post #5

You might wonder how polio gets reintroduced into Israel or anywhere else. The polio vaccines we currently use are imperfect. The oral vaccine is a weakened form but it mutates in the neighborhood of one in a million cases to become effectively wild polio and some years this accounts for most of the poliomyelitis cases. On the other hand, the fully inactivated injected vaccine is non-sterilizing: it prevents poliomye…

> The polio vaccines we currently use are imperfect Is that due to tradeoffs (cost, health risk, etc.) with other types of vaccines, or do we simply not know how to make them?q

They are non-sterilizing ; that is, they protect the vaccinee from getting the disease, but not from getting (and shedding) the virus.

We have sterilizing oral ones. They have safety issues, both personal and population level ones.

The essentially perfect way is to give everyone the non-sterilizing one as early as possible in life, and the sterilizing one at a later stage. The non-sterilizing one protects against the safety issues in the sterilizing one.

Re: Four-year-old Israeli child tests positive for polio, first case since 1989

#194

Post by Arnt »

dalbasal wrote: post #186
alignItems wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3.9

This isn't true, at least in Israel. "Faith" is a big word, but for many/most haredi people "community" is the more operative term. Leaving a sect means becoming an outsider. All their family and friend relationships are insider-based. Regardless of the severity of luteral shunning practices, the nature or haredi lifestyle makes these aspects severe regardless. There's a lot of variance between communities though. In…

Thanks.

Faith isn't quite the right word for what I mean, but community isn't either. The particular set of opinions or practices that have the practical effect of keeping the parents (and some grown-up children) separated from the wider society. (The concrete practical effect mentioned upthread was being vaccinated.)

Re: Four-year-old Israeli child tests positive for polio, first case since 1989

#195

Post by ekianjo »

moistly wrote: post #167
asdfwsgrtrtt44 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

President of the US influential enough for you? "There’s a simple, basic proposition: If you’re vaccinated, you’re not going to be hospitalized, you’re not going to be in an ICU unit, and you’re not going to die." https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/20...

Fair. He should not have used that language. Hey, why use a new throwaway account? Don’t be a chickenshit. Stand behind your claim. Especially since it’s truthful.

> Don’t be a chickenshit

Kind of rich after asking someone for proof instead of spending 1 minute to google to verify the claim.

Re: Four-year-old Israeli child tests positive for polio, first case since 1989

#196

Post by ekianjo »

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #126
ekianjo wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> anti-vaxxers Instead of having an uneducated opinion, you should know that polio vaccines can sometimes cause... polio. Yeah, that's not even remotely debated, it's well known: https://www.npr.org/2019/11/16/780068006/how-the-oral-polio-... https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/hcp/vaccine-derived-p...

This is misleading fear mongering, the people refusing vaccines are in western developed countries, where they are offered injectable forms of the vaccine. Refusing free and approved vaccination programmes is anti-social behaviour and a public health hazard.

> This is misleading fear mongering

Oh so the CDC link is fear mongering? When presented with facts does it feel good to ignore them at convenience ? Cognitive dissonance much?

Re: Four-year-old Israeli child tests positive for polio, first case since 1989

#197

Post by DoingIsLearning »

ekianjo wrote: post #196
DoingIsLearning wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is misleading fear mongering, the people refusing vaccines are in western developed countries, where they are offered injectable forms of the vaccine. Refusing free and approved vaccination programmes is anti-social behaviour and a public health hazard.

> This is misleading fear mongering Oh so the CDC link is fear mongering? When presented with facts does it feel good to ignore them at convenience ? Cognitive dissonance much?

It is fear mongering because this was an issue, it is no more.

It is fear mongering because this affected OPV and people are only getting vaccinated with injection based polio vaccine for which none of this applies.

Re: Four-year-old Israeli child tests positive for polio, first case since 1989

#198

Post by ch4s3 »

fleurjs wrote: post #98
ch4s3 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Awfully presumptuous of you… Some ideas just exist outside of our ability to test hypotheses about them. If there’s an idea that could never be disproven by observation, then it exists outside of the domain of science, definitionally. Have faith or don’t, I don’t care.

You're rambling nonsense and for the past few comments. Why do you think I wrote science doesn't prove God or free will? Do you believe I didn't already classify you with persons that believe unprovable things that doesn't mix with science. In academia the worst persons to work with have been believers of God or free will. It's honestly too bad that we don't have real choice otherwise I would've requested to not be b…

What’s your basis for thinking free will doesn’t exist?

Re: Four-year-old Israeli child tests positive for polio, first case since 1989

#199

Post by ed25519FUUU »

ggm wrote: post #67
ed25519FUUU wrote: post #58

Thankfully polio is an extremely treatable disease. Vaccination is still the best form of defense against poliovirus. There’s no free lunch though, and more people are infected with polio from vaccines worldwide than with the wild virus. https://apnews.com/article/health-united-nations-ap-top-news...

This is a really dangerous comment. Thankfully polio is an extremely treatable disease -What exactly do you think is the treatment, beyond prophylaxis? That the rate of vaccine caused infection is now higher than the rate of wild infection is no reason to stop vaccinating. It's really sad but this is why we have indemnity processes. Eradication depends on continual vaccination, well beyond any kind of epidemic. Even…

There’s nothing dangerous about my comment and in fact it represents the status quo for fighting polio worldwide:

1. Vaccines are the best defense against poliovirus.

2. The vaccines sometimes but rarely give people polio (more often than the wild virus in fact).

3. Polio is a very treatable disease, so contracting polio either from the vaccine or the live virus represents low risk.

I’m literally just stating the worldwide polio eradication strategy: vaccinate, monitor, treat. Not sure why you’re so sensitive about it.

Re: Four-year-old Israeli child tests positive for polio, first case since 1989

#200

Post by Izkata »

fragmede wrote: post #183
Izkata wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> despite there being no recorded cases - there's definitely shedding going on > This is not necessarily something that can be attributed to the vaccine. Some stats about polio that people seem unaware of: * Around 72% of infections are completely asymptomatic. * Around 25% of infections result in flu-like symptoms. * That remaining 3% is where the serious symptoms are, with paralysis occurring in only about 0.5% of…

To put that in perspective, to date, Covid-19 has killed 957k Americans. This works out to be 0.3 percent if everyone had it (which they didn't).

This number is lower than that due to the "with vs from" distinction. The data is really messy though so we can't be sure how much lower.
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