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Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

reuters.com

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Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#741

Post by type0 »

theshrike79 wrote: post #492
TillE wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every country has its propaganda and lies, but they're generally couched in half-truths. It's truly remarkable how the Russian flavor of misinformation sounds just like a pathological liar making up wild bullshit that nobody could possibly take seriously. That's been a tradition for decades, as far as I know.

The Russian language has three words for lying, two for truth. And one of those (pravda) is a kind of a half-truth used to keep moving from the current situation. Russians know they are and have been lied to, but the culture is to keep going anyways, because that's how things have been done since forever.

From my relatively uneducated knowledge pravda stems from pravo (legal rights) e.g https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russkaya_Pravda it changed meaning over the centuries though

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#742

Post by pvaldes »

hnlmorg wrote: post #691
pvaldes wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same happened in Chernobyl. Workers in the plant granted the free pass and were allowed to keep running the plants. The young soldiers just can't do it and is in their most interest to keep the plant operations safe. A figth inside a nuclear plant can't be win and starting it would be a moronic disaster. Even the dumbest soldier is aware of that. But is still a risk. People does not act rationally in a war. If it con…

Nuclear power stations don't go boom so even if a war was raged inside a power station it wouldn't take out half of Europe. What could happen is safety systems could be compromised causing a meltdown and that would carry the risk of spreading radioactive matter to the local environment. And if the local environment gets sufficiently contaminated then weather patterns, sea tides, etc could spread the radiation much fu…

Chernobyl disaster was first detected in Sweden, and in this nuclear plant would be like six Chernobyl, is closer to Europe than Chernobyl was and we can add the 3 reactors still active in Chernobyl also in hands of clueless 20 Yo soldiers. Some of those people claimed that they don't really know whom are fighting, or what are doing here.

By the way, I never say that I was concerned by an explosion blowing half of the continent, but the effects on Germany for example, were measurable and still last. We shouldn't be so naive as to ignore the risk.

I think that your prevision of just a few miles, enough so Putin will have this safe perimeter, is too much optimistic

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#743

Post by oddmiral »

type0 wrote: post #737
usrusr wrote: post #721

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So tell us, which of the letters in USSR is for "Russia"?

RSFSR - Russia is officially recognized as continuation state of USSR by the UN

Can you point to an official document, such as voting by UN members, to put RF into security council of UN? I cannot find any. RF is not a founder of UN, so it puzzling for me, how they are able to sit permanently in Security Council. Is there an exception for RF in UN statute written somewhere?

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#744

Post by type0 »

oddmiral wrote: post #743
type0 wrote: post #737

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RSFSR - Russia is officially recognized as continuation state of USSR by the UN

Can you point to an official document, such as voting by UN members, to put RF into security council of UN? I cannot find any. RF is not a founder of UN, so it puzzling for me, how they are able to sit permanently in Security Council. Is there an exception for RF in UN statute written somewhere?

> Can you point to official documents, such as voting by UN members to put RF into security council of UN?

No idea, I haven't seen any. Another thing Russia inherited from USSR war nukes as well as debt.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#745

Post by keymone »

locallost wrote: post #738
keymone wrote: post #699

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of sick mind one needs to have, to push this anti nuclear bullshit when the real issue is a fucking fascist invasion of Russia into Ukraine? For fucks sake..

Ran out of arguments pretty quickly so taking cover behind your high horse. One of the most pathetic things one can do.

Talk to me about reducing energy from nuclear after you've done something to reduce energy from russian oil and gas. until then - go fuck yourself.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#746

Post by keymone »

fulafel wrote: post #730
keymone wrote: post #662

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This wouldn’t have happened if the world stopped buying oil and gas from Russia and used more energy from nuclear power plants.

This would have needed to happen a long time ago to have the altnerative energy sources in production today. Which also begs another counterfactual scenario: what if we had spent even a slightly larger fraction of the taxpayer r&d subsidies on renewables rather than the extremely capital heavy nuclear research on both military and civilian sectors, with many decades long dead-ends (breeders, gas cooled, liquid cooled…

r&d in nuclear pretty much died down over past couple decades, it all went into wind and solar. and i think it's a mistake. safe compact nuclear reactors have been developed even with reduced capital, imagine where we could've been if we continued developing.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#747

Post by gordian-mind »

tenpies wrote: post #475
21723 wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, which is fucking terrifying. You don't do war crimes unless you expect to get away with it, which means either you're fighting a war that more powerful nations don't care about, or you expect to win it. Putin can't win against NATO but he can make both sides lose. I used to think he was rational and only minorly evil, but now I'm not so sure of the rationality... and clearly he's more than minorly evil.

Two thoughts come to mind: 1) The West has already weaponized the law. It is currently operating on the Latin American dictator model of "for my friends, anything; for my enemies: the law!". 2) The United States strongly opposes the ICC treaty and does not accept its jurisdiction overs its nationals and is even willing to use military force to free any of its nationals should the ICC ever try to enforce jurisdiction…

Thank you very much. This is how citizens and governments in nations outside of the Western world perceive the West and its mad war propaganda. And they're correct.

Westerners, that are scrutinizing every single move of Russia today, ignored every time it was pointed out that the U.S. was waging a proxy war in Ukraine for 8 years.

The Minsk agreements, mediated by NATO members, were NEVER applied, and there have been 14000 deaths in the Donbass war since 2014. All the while, U.S. politicians have been publicly gloating that they "are fighting Russia in Ukraine". Their involvement in this is clearly documented -- except Westerners do not even care to look.

The current act of freezing the assets of the Russian state -- completely arbitrary thievery -- just sends the following message to outside governments that have seen this unfold: the West is not to be trusted.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#748

Post by encryptluks2 »

xdrosenheim wrote: post #545
hans_castorp wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If true, then that’s another war crime to add to the growing list. So what? Russia (like the USA btw) does not acknowledge the jurisdiction of the ICC. The dictator in Moscow (and his minions) will just laugh at any conviction from there.

Doesn't matter what they think or acknowledge. If they set foot in a country that supports those convictions, they can be arrested.

If who exactly sets foot in a country that recognizes the convictions? No country is going to try to start a war with Russia by detaining their President.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#749

Post by darkerside »

VBprogrammer wrote: post #617
dsabanin wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of Ukraine and Russia, now we all know which country is more likely to use a dirty bomb.

I'm not sure I understand you. Of those two Ukraine is surely more likely to use a dirty bomb; purely because they don't have access to a traditional nuclear arsenal. If Russia wants to use Nuclear weapons then they only need to enter the codes. That would probably be the final straw for western powers putting boots on the ground though.

Why would you use a dirty bomb in your own country?

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#750

Post by hnlmorg »

pvaldes wrote: post #742
hnlmorg wrote: post #691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear power stations don't go boom so even if a war was raged inside a power station it wouldn't take out half of Europe. What could happen is safety systems could be compromised causing a meltdown and that would carry the risk of spreading radioactive matter to the local environment. And if the local environment gets sufficiently contaminated then weather patterns, sea tides, etc could spread the radiation much fu…

Chernobyl disaster was first detected in Sweden, and in this nuclear plant would be like six Chernobyl, is closer to Europe than Chernobyl was and we can add the 3 reactors still active in Chernobyl also in hands of clueless 20 Yo soldiers. Some of those people claimed that they don't really know whom are fighting, or what are doing here. By the way, I never say that I was concerned by an explosion blowing half of th…

Chernobyl was a different era and mismanaged for days too. If something happened to the Ukrainian power station we'd know about it sooner (the proof of that is the fact that we know enough to have this discussion to begin with) and could react sooner. We've learned lessons from other meltdowns and nuclear and radiation accidents and incidents that have happened since Chernobyl and thus are better equipped and educated to respond. This applies as much to Russia as it does Europe, Japan and America too.

> I never say that I was concerned by an explosion blowing half of the continent, but the effects on Germany for example, were measurable and still last.

Your comment is very misleading then if that's what you meant:

"If it continues for a lot of time any depressed 19yo soldier could say I'm sick of this, decided to suicide and destroy half of the EU with him."

^ that reads to me like a pretty instant cause and effect, which a nuclear meltdown is not. If you were talking about over a prolonged period with no decontamination nor mitigation efforts put in place, then it really was not clear from your comment. And I'd argue that is a result of far more than just the actions of a depressed 19 year old soldier in isolation.

> I think that your prevision of just a few miles, enough to Putin have this safe perimeter, is too much optimistic

You're now conflating accident with intention. If Putin intentionally wants to contaminate half of the EU then that's a whole different argument to an accident happening during a capture of a power station or a depressed solder committing suicide (which was the original context you defined and the context I was responding to)

I'm not trying to dispute that the risk of contamination if one damages a nuclear power station is both significant and worrisome. I'm just saying it's not an instant effect (as your post implies) and thus measures can be taken to contain the worst of it to relatively a localized area.

Anyway, I think we both agree that nuclear power stations don't make good war zones :)

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