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Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

reuters.com

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Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#641

Post by rapnie »

Muromec wrote: post #603
HWR_14 wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Internet speculation is that the power plant will be shut down once taken over. Which at least minimizes the ongoing risk of human error. Heck, shutting down is probably a far simpler process than continuing to run - nuclear power plants are designed to be shut down if necessary.

Well, shutting down nuclear reactor is not a simple process — it has to be actively cooled for weeks after being disconnected, which requires power, which you don’t have because you shut it down. So there should be either on-site generators (burning fuel) or external power . That’s why power stations usually have multiple reactors which are serviced on schedule, so it always has some generation happening. None of it…

> Emergency shutdown drill is how Chornobyl’ happened

And not being informed of well-known (in higher Soviet echelons) serious reactor flaws, like the grafite on the rods being inserted into the reactor core initially spiking the fission process significantly.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#642

Post by lordnacho »

ignoramous wrote: post #615
bluecalm wrote: post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're operating under an assumption that Putin will only use nuclear power if we cross some imaginary line. We analyze agreements, fine print, war conventions. Those things don't matter to him. If he feels he is losing this war he will threaten nuclear weapons anyway. He may threaten it if he doesn't get exactly what he wants. We need to stop normalizing the idea that there is some holy line which is we just stay aw…

As abhorrent as it sounds, if the Russian government authorizes use of nuclear weapons, it might only be exclusively to get Ukraine to surrender and end the war on Russian terms. I don't think their designs will be to go nuclear on rest of Europe.

That's just the nuclear salami method. Declare you're only using nukes locally and everyone else better not piss you off. Take that slice. Repeat.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#643

Post by mcv »

ericd wrote: post #483
ck2 wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Purposely causing nuclear disasters is one way to ensure a country can never join NATO or the EU Putin doesn't have to occupy the country to "win", all he has to do is set them back to the dark ages and make everyone (who can) flee. He can't be allowed to get away with this. Ukraine needs a "no fly zone" ASAP

You realize that instituting a no fly zone means the US shooting down Russian aircraft, right? Which means a hot war between US/NATO and Russia. That is something that the US should absolutely not engage in, because the stakes at that point are the survival of the species, rather than just Ukraine. We need to not normalize the idea of a no fly zone, no matter how gut wrenching watching this war gets.

A no-fly zone is no justification for nuclear escalation. Internationally, the only justification for a nuclear attack is in retaliation to another nuclear attack. That is it.

Putin has made it clear that he will also launch a nuclear attack in case of an "existential war", which means a war where Russia itself is being attacked with the purpose of conquering or destroying it.

A no-fly zone is not that. There is no reason for Russia to escalate to nuclear, except for Putin's vengeful ego. Because everybody knows that if Russia goes nuclear, it would be the end of Russia. Everybody in the nuclear chain of command knows this. Even if Putin is actually insane enough to order a nuclear attack (he might be, I don't know), anyone of any competence in the military will ignore those orders, because it would end their country and kill their family. (Although you could ask whether there is anyone of competence left in the Russian military; Putin seems to replace competents with loyalists, and the incompetent execution of the attack on Kiev doesn't inspire much confidence here.)

And if Putin's vengeful ego will make him order a nuclear attack, then losing this war will probably do that anyway, whether or not NATO or EU had anything to do with it. And there is no way Putin can win this war. Ukrainians have made clear that they will continue to fight, no matter what. If Kiev falls, they will continue to fight. Any city that Russia takes, will be Ukrainian again the moment they leave. For Ukrainians, there is no surrender possible to a man who wants to enslave them. If this war continues, it can only become a massacre. Putin would have to kill every single Ukrainian, and I'm starting to believe that he would. It would be another holocaust.

I think a no-fly zone is the only option.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#644

Post by sabas123 »

throwaway9278 wrote: post #622
revscat wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This touches on why I think humanity will not survive for much longer. Global warming continues to be a civilization-ending level threat, and yet it continues to be more or less ignored. Vast swathes of the population believe that their egos can determine reality, no matter the actual physical reality they so hubristically ignore. > we’re not capable of I don’t think so, either. This sentiment tends to be met by the…

Are you so sure you're not yourself trapped in an irrational thinking loop? Global warming is not a civilization-ending threat. Even nuclear war is not a civilization-ending threat, outside a few places in the Northern hemisphere. I could be wrong about both of these claims. But you could be as well, and you're taking an extremely pessimistic view based on what you know, which is not the whole picture.

How are these things not a civilization ending threat? Nukes can literally kill everything and global warming, if unchecked, will probably do the same long term.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#645

Post by thesmok »

ericd wrote: post #483
ck2 wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Purposely causing nuclear disasters is one way to ensure a country can never join NATO or the EU Putin doesn't have to occupy the country to "win", all he has to do is set them back to the dark ages and make everyone (who can) flee. He can't be allowed to get away with this. Ukraine needs a "no fly zone" ASAP

You realize that instituting a no fly zone means the US shooting down Russian aircraft, right? Which means a hot war between US/NATO and Russia. That is something that the US should absolutely not engage in, because the stakes at that point are the survival of the species, rather than just Ukraine. We need to not normalize the idea of a no fly zone, no matter how gut wrenching watching this war gets.

Ukraine is already winning the war in all domains except air. Air support is all we need to have a clear win here. At this point NATO has a choice of engaging Russia at Ukrainian territory now, or at NATO territory later.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#646

Post by bertil »

Muromec wrote: post #603
HWR_14 wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Internet speculation is that the power plant will be shut down once taken over. Which at least minimizes the ongoing risk of human error. Heck, shutting down is probably a far simpler process than continuing to run - nuclear power plants are designed to be shut down if necessary.

Well, shutting down nuclear reactor is not a simple process — it has to be actively cooled for weeks after being disconnected, which requires power, which you don’t have because you shut it down. So there should be either on-site generators (burning fuel) or external power . That’s why power stations usually have multiple reactors which are serviced on schedule, so it always has some generation happening. None of it…

I was about to mention that reactors often have fuel generators but I remember that the invading force is famous for selling the gas from their tanks to pocket the money…

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#647

Post by mcv »

mise_en_place wrote: post #590
hans_castorp wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the meantime I fear he is indeed that crazy. He repeatedly stated that his goal is to wipe out Ukraine at any costs. He is a like a little child that doesn't get his way and then blindly hits at everything in his reach.

What does crazy mean? Irrational? I don’t think so. He is currently following the Nash equilibrium strategy for fighting a war with a non-nuclear power. Edit: by your terminology I would consider Ukrainians to be crazy. This a good thing and the reason why I’m rooting for them. They’re the underdog. The rational thing for them to do was to capitulate as soon as the invasions started. It takes a “crazy” level of convi…

No, capitulation would be irrational, because it would mean they would be controlled and enslaved by Putin. Ukraine has lived under that yoke before, and will do everything possible to prevent it from happening again. There is no surrender possible for them, and that's why Putin cannot possibly win this war.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#648

Post by selfhoster11 »

seanhandley wrote: post #559
gambiting wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? You have never heard anyone ever describe regular citizens surrendering to the invader? I feel like you are arguing a technicality here - if you are faced with people with guns of course you'd say "I surrender" even if technically that's not what you're doing.

Welcome to HN. The home of "Well, technically".

Well, technically that's Reddit and not HN.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#649

Post by short_sells_poo »

pasquinelli wrote: post #632
sidibe wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't surprise me if they believe that considering the ridiculous stream of fantasy being spewed out of Russian leader and media.

Quoted post unavailable.

This whataboutism has to stop. One bad thing doesn't excuse another. Would you suggest that it's OK to use nuclear weapons because the US used two of them in WW2? I hope not.

The invasion of Iraq was based on lies and this is terrible. The invasion of Ukraine is based on lies and it is also terrible.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#650

Post by pvaldes »

joshuajill wrote: post #218
dsabanin wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And now Russian forces have entered the building and are fighting inside.

Apparently Ukrainians have surrendered now. What a nerve wrecking situation. In the heat of the moment deciding when is the right time to surrender. Probably the smartest decision of the day.

Same happened in Chernobyl. Workers in the plant granted the free pass and were allowed to keep running the plants. The young soldiers just can't do it and is in their most interest to keep the plant operations safe. A figth inside a nuclear plant can't be win and starting it would be a moronic disaster. Even the dumbest soldier is aware of that.

But is still a risk. People does not act rationally in a war. If it continues for a lot of time any depressed 19yo soldier could say I'm sick of this, decided to suicide and destroy half of the EU with him. The objective of probable Ukrainian genocide has been upgraded to possible European genocide as a bonus.

On the other hand, Putin seems to crave for another countries joining the war so he can "show the nazis" to Russia.

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