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Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

reuters.com

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Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#611

Post by supergirl »

sofixa wrote: post #604
supergirl wrote: post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

anything is possible in war. if Ukraine was on the brink of losing everything and they had nuclear weapons, would they not use them against Russia? that's the whole point. if your state is about to cease to exist, you are desperate. for now, the war has not reached this point. if Ukraine where to try to use nuclear material now they would lose allies. but you don't know what the war will look like in 2 weeks. so I do…

No? Considering the nuclear power plants are in Ukraine, and whichever way the wind blows, it will at a minimum impact Ukrainians. And then you can't know where it will end up - maybe Russia, maybe Germany.

yes, whether Ukraine would actually launch such a bomb is debatable. it's not like it would change the tide of the war, it would be mostly for revenge. war is very unpredictable. I wouldn't rule out anything.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#612

Post by Muromec »

Scea91 wrote: post #525
oddmiral wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anything can go wrong AFTER takeover. Russians can convert power plant into nuclear landmine and blow up it on retreat. This is war between two nuclear states, so nuclear weapon will be used eventually.

> This is war between two nuclear states, so nuclear weapon will be used eventually. Ukraine is not a nuclear state as it does not have nuclear weapons.

We promised to not have it in return for not being invaded, so technically we are a nuclear state without any weapons present at this moment (as far as publicly known).

Since we have both technological expertise and practical means (from uranium ores to delivery systems), it’s a matter of time.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#613

Post by ciphol »

ornornor wrote: post #465
eru wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is bad, but nuclear isn't uniquely dangerous here: just imagine the same kind of shelling around a large dam.

> a large dam It would be catastrophic but much more localized. Fallout from Chernobyl went around the world several times, poisoning most of the humans alive or being made at the time (not to mention the rest of the biomass)

Chernobyl killed about 10k people. A single dam collapse killed 170k people a few decades ago.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#614

Post by eru »

oddmiral wrote: post #602
eru wrote: post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a fair point in general. Exploding all nuclear reactors in Ukraine isn't going to do that though. And, of course, Russia could do much blowing up with conventional weapons, too.

Just one nuclear reactor can be used to create continent wide Red forest. Chornobyl disaster was just an incident without evil intent. Small fraction of nuclear fuel was released into atmosphere. With evil intent, much larger percent of nuclear fuel can be turned into thin dust and released into atmosphere. Larger reactors contain much more nuclear fuel. With evil intent, much more radioactive elements, such as radio…

Maybe. I am sure you can do more damage, if you optimize for that, than an accident would do.

However: for a nuclear power like Russia, blowing up nuclear reactors only makes sense if they can make it look like an accident.

Otherwise: just use your nukes.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#615

Post by ignoramous »

bluecalm wrote: post #599
ericd wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You realize that instituting a no fly zone means the US shooting down Russian aircraft, right? Which means a hot war between US/NATO and Russia. That is something that the US should absolutely not engage in, because the stakes at that point are the survival of the species, rather than just Ukraine. We need to not normalize the idea of a no fly zone, no matter how gut wrenching watching this war gets.

You're operating under an assumption that Putin will only use nuclear power if we cross some imaginary line. We analyze agreements, fine print, war conventions. Those things don't matter to him. If he feels he is losing this war he will threaten nuclear weapons anyway. He may threaten it if he doesn't get exactly what he wants. We need to stop normalizing the idea that there is some holy line which is we just stay aw…

As abhorrent as it sounds, if the Russian government authorizes use of nuclear weapons, it might only be exclusively to get Ukraine to surrender and end the war on Russian terms. I don't think their designs will be to go nuclear on rest of Europe.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#616

Post by telomero22 »

gloriana wrote: post #523
boringg wrote: post #274

So, aside from the obvious nature of messing around with Nuclear generating station being an idiotic move. From a tactical move for Russia - clearly they want the generating station offline to cause further chaos in Ukraine and that it supplies 1/6 of the power I believe(?). Was the generating station fighting to say online / not surrender or did Russia just show up guns blazing? It's clearly a tactically important s…

If the reactors are on, destroying any of the infrasture around it can be devastating. The reactors need external power to operate. If external power disappears, the reactors now need emergency power from diesel gen sets. If those fail due to any reason, the reactors will probably melt down - unless they have already been off for quite a while (~weeks would be necessary). If the reactors melt down, the VVER has both…

That's not correct.

It only takes a couple of seconds to shut down a reactor. https://qr.ae/pGdkkv

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#617

Post by VBprogrammer »

dsabanin wrote: post #423
armada651 wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only public statement I've read is that the Russian Army is concerned the Ukrainians would use their Nuclear Power Plants as dirty bombs.

Out of Ukraine and Russia, now we all know which country is more likely to use a dirty bomb.

I'm not sure I understand you. Of those two Ukraine is surely more likely to use a dirty bomb; purely because they don't have access to a traditional nuclear arsenal.

If Russia wants to use Nuclear weapons then they only need to enter the codes. That would probably be the final straw for western powers putting boots on the ground though.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#618

Post by mcv »

W-Stool wrote: post #446
TillE wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every country has its propaganda and lies, but they're generally couched in half-truths. It's truly remarkable how the Russian flavor of misinformation sounds just like a pathological liar making up wild bullshit that nobody could possibly take seriously. That's been a tradition for decades, as far as I know.

Reminds me of a recent US President. Very recent ...

It's certainly true for politicians too. Many politicians cherry-pick the facts that suit them best, but very few are so completely detached from reality as that guy was.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#619

Post by croon »

throwawaylinux wrote: post #436
d23 wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll take the downvotes too. We had a president who idolized Putin and still praises him to this day. If we think this sort of thing can't happen here, or aren't clear eyed about the threat he and his enablers still pose, we are in even more danger.

Yes, propaganda and political lies is certainly not confined to Russia or backwater dictatorships. In America you also had that president's opponents concocting lies and peddling insane and baseless conspiracy theories for years about him colluding with Putin to hack the election and other such nonsense. That was even more infantile and simple than the propaganda that comes out of Russia.

Everything in the Mueller report was true. No republican has denied that, or come to any other conclusion in their committee reports. Trump was cleared in the impeachment not because of the contents of the report, but whether what happened technically constituted collusion, or whether republicans felt that convicting him was necessary for what he and his associates did in fact do.

This is what the last report from the republican majority senate intelligence committee wrote [0]:

> It is our conclusion, based on the facts detailed in the Committee's Report, that the Russian intelligence services' assault on the integrity of the 2016 U.S. electoral process[,] and Trump and his associates' participation in and enabling of this Russian activity, represents one of the single most grave counterintelligence threats to American national security in the modern era.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Intelligence_Committee_...

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#620

Post by labster »

ethbr0 wrote: post #524
labster wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would annexation of Ukraine further Russia’s strategic goals at this point? NATO expansion is getting more popular by the hour, as is joining the EU. Economic sanctions weaken Russia, and will continue for years to decades if Ukraine is annexed. Sure, the Russian army can get total victory given enough time, but winning the war doesn’t benefit Russia.

Moscow from Ukraine border: ~520 km Moscow from Latvian border: ~620 km Not to mention full control of a Black Sea (and therefore entrance to Mediterranean) coastline with multiple ports. As well as a major agricultural products. As well as a huge transit country for Russian energy pipelines.

What does slightly more access to the Mediterranean get you when no European country will buy your goods? All of those things you mentioned are worthless without buyers.

Except the farm land. But it’s not 1444 — trade is vastly more profitable than agriculture nowadays.

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