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Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

reuters.com

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Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#541

Post by marttt »

EGreg wrote: post #302
trhway wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine TV live on YouTube.

Links please !

Estonian Public Broadcasting (ERR) has a banner to ICTV Ukraine live stream on its frontpage. The channel is in Ukrainian, though.

Link to ICTV stream through ERR: https://jupiter.err.ee/otse/eri6

About the ICTV channel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICTV_(Ukraine)

About ERR's decision: https://news.err.ee/1608518996/err-adds-current-time-ukraini...

For context, access to ERR's own Russian news site was blocked in Russia a few days ago.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#542

Post by akvadrako »

ornornor wrote: post #465
eru wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is bad, but nuclear isn't uniquely dangerous here: just imagine the same kind of shelling around a large dam.

> a large dam It would be catastrophic but much more localized. Fallout from Chernobyl went around the world several times, poisoning most of the humans alive or being made at the time (not to mention the rest of the biomass)

Not at a dangerous level, say more than eating a banana.

The dam breaks killed and hurt magnitudes more people.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#543

Post by mulmen »

ericd wrote: post #490
mulmen wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no “demonstration nuke”. If Putin sets off a nuke it’s doomsday. The time between Russia being the second country to use nuclear weapons and our current concept of countries becoming totally irrelevant would be measured in minutes. Having said this he might still do it.

The rest of the world isn’t going to say “whelp, I guess it’s time to kick off the extinction of our species” and do a full set of city strikes over a tactical nuke being used. That would be absurd.

That opinion is contrary to over 70 years of geopolitical and military strategic thinking.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#544

Post by Johnny555 »

ericd wrote: post #540
Johnny555 wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not advocating for any direct NATO involvement, I was just saying that Ukraine would love NATO support, even if just air support (which they've already asked for), but even that would likely escalate this into a world war. I'm not sure how you read that as me advocating for NATO involvement. But I disagree with your assertion that the reason to not let them into NATO has gotten stronger, I think this invasion sho…

Sorry, I don’t understand, how is air support not direct NATO involvement? The reason has gotten stronger because if we let Ukraine into NATO now, that obligates NATO to defend them, which makes this into WW3. That would be extremely bad for humanity on a much, much larger scale than Ukraine represents. NATO is not a tool for humanitarian aid.

It is direct NATO involvement, I never advocated for it -- Ukraine did.

Obviously we wouldn't let Ukraine into NATO now during a conflict, but if this conflict somehow ends and Putin withdraws then I think there's a strong case for giving them NATO membership. Letting Ukraine join NATO later is a deterrent from another invastion, letting them join NATO today is just the start of WWIII

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#545

Post by xdrosenheim »

hans_castorp wrote: post #507
HL33tibCe7 wrote: post #135

Allegedly, Ukrainian firefighters were shot at by Russian troops. If true, then that’s another war crime to add to the growing list.

> If true, then that’s another war crime to add to the growing list. So what? Russia (like the USA btw) does not acknowledge the jurisdiction of the ICC. The dictator in Moscow (and his minions) will just laugh at any conviction from there.

Doesn't matter what they think or acknowledge. If they set foot in a country that supports those convictions, they can be arrested.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#546

Post by Scea91 »

twaw wrote: post #533
Scea91 wrote: post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is war between two nuclear states, so nuclear weapon will be used eventually. Ukraine is not a nuclear state as it does not have nuclear weapons.

Quoted post unavailable.

> It looks like nobody holding their promises right now, i.e. USA, Brittain, RF, France are traitors, thus Ukraine has full right to not obey this agreement either.

No, the only traitor is Russia. Look at the actual contents of Budapest memorandum [1]. This is in summary what the parties committed to:

1) Respect Belarusian, Kazakh and Ukrainian independence and sovereignty in the existing borders.

2) Refrain from the threat or the use of force against Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine.

3) Refrain from using economic pressure on Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine to influence their politics.

4) Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".

5) Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine.

6) Consult with one another if questions arise regarding those commitments.

I do not see any of these items being violated by western powers.

> RF started to prepare their citizens for such scenario already.

Obviously not for propaganda purposes...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Securit...

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#547

Post by gambiting »

twaw wrote: post #528
gambiting wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure he means the Ukrainians inside the nuclear plant, not Ukrainians in general.

Operators of nuclear plant are civilians. They are not part of force. Civilians can be captured, they cannot surrender, because nobody asks them to do that. I never heard that police or army asks somebody unarmed to surrender.

Really? You have never heard anyone ever describe regular citizens surrendering to the invader? I feel like you are arguing a technicality here - if you are faced with people with guns of course you'd say "I surrender" even if technically that's not what you're doing.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#548

Post by thomasahle »

yabones wrote: post #314

This has been a real reckoning for me, as somebody who has historically been very pro-nuclear. Quite simply, humanity is too good at screwing things up to harness such a fundamentally powerful and dangerous source of power. It requires a commitment to long lasting peace and stability that we're just not capable of.

My thinking has been that we need smaller decentralized nuclear plants, that can fail without it being cathastrofic, instead of huge centralized plants that "can't fail".

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#549

Post by threatripper »

gloriana wrote: post #523
boringg wrote: post #274

So, aside from the obvious nature of messing around with Nuclear generating station being an idiotic move. From a tactical move for Russia - clearly they want the generating station offline to cause further chaos in Ukraine and that it supplies 1/6 of the power I believe(?). Was the generating station fighting to say online / not surrender or did Russia just show up guns blazing? It's clearly a tactically important s…

If the reactors are on, destroying any of the infrasture around it can be devastating. The reactors need external power to operate. If external power disappears, the reactors now need emergency power from diesel gen sets. If those fail due to any reason, the reactors will probably melt down - unless they have already been off for quite a while (~weeks would be necessary). If the reactors melt down, the VVER has both…

Yes, the power plants now need a stable supply of electric power or diesel for cooling in coming days, weeks and months as they have been shut off last night. A failure of cooling is what lead to the newclear disasters in Fukushima.

Re: Fire extinguished at Ukraine nuclear power plant, Europe's largest

#550

Post by monocasa »

MisterMower wrote: post #488
monocasa wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the clear line in the sand. Putin's not going to cross that line, he doesn't gain anything from it.

Assuming NATO would be willing to use nuclear weapons if he did attack a NATO country. I have far more confidence that Putin would use them than the US would. That asymmetry works to his advantage.

He knows he'll get an actual response that he can't defend against, nukes or conventional weapons.
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