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Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

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Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#161

Post by roveo »

jjgreen wrote: post #59
version_five wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed - I can't believe how quickly the "mainstream" had adopted a hatred basically of a whole people based on the actions of an autocratic leader that does not represent them, and where speaking out would almost certainly have very bad consequences. We should be doing everything we can to stop Putin from waging war, but casual hatred of a group is not helpful or appropriate, even if it's the obvious extension of al…

> an autocratic leader that does not represent them They did elect him (with 76.69% of the vote).

This is incorrect. Electoral rating of Putin (as of 2021) is around 30%. The central election committee will just declare the results that Putin wants.

People in the West who live in (relatively) democratic countries just go around saying "Russians elected him" without actually understanding what living under an autocratic rule is like. Putin never won a free and fair election. He persecuted his opponents, denied them access to media (and as of today, there's no independent media left) installed dummy ones that play into his hand and falsified the elections.

It's like seeing hunger in a 3rd world country and saying "why don't they just learn how to program and get an actual job?"

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#162

Post by trhway »

RustyBucket wrote: post #102
wedn3sday wrote: post #16

It doesnt matter if the person themselves opposes the Ukrainian invasion, the person is representing Russia. Is it the tournament organizers job to vet the political views of every single participant to make sure they're sufficiently anti-putin? Blocking Russian participants isnt about blocking the individual people, its about sending a blanket statement across the board.

This is how you step on a path of a genocide ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide )

Genocide and ethnic cleansing is already in full swing. Too late for "step on a path".

As a Russian immigrant in US, i support kicking out from US or any other country any Russian who wouldn't condemn in straight clear words Putin's fascist regime and the genocide it conducts in Ukraine. Anything less is just a support of what is going on.

For any public figure it is doubly so. Grischuk didn't even use the word "war" in order to not have issues with Russian government. Well, it is a war and one can't be on good terms with all the sides simultaneously, and there is no neutrality when it comes to genocide and ethnic cleansing. Ukrainian civilians get killed being intentionally bombed in their homes just for being Ukrainians (it is called genocide), Ukrainian women and children are running for their lives to Poland (as their lives are in danger just for them being Ukrainians, and such ethnicity based forced displacement constitutes ethnic cleansing), with some walking tens of kilometers in cold winter, and even some women giving birth in-route. If you don't take their side then you really should be kicked out of the civilized world.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#163

Post by gpm »

cool_dude85 wrote: post #149
mdoms wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Though I’m curious - how much time in your opinion has to pass before Russians are allowed to participate again? How is that relevant? I think no matter what the answer, no one is going to draw the line sooner than "during the actual invasion".

>no one is going to draw the line sooner than "during the actual invasion". If it's going to just be countries still in ongoing war or occupation, then I suppose China, India, Turkey, France, Israel, and the US will be next on the list to be uninvited from the tournament. I'm sure we could think of more too.

Funny you should mention Israel.

People playing under the Iranian flag aren't allowed to play people under the Israeli flag. Because they represent Iran, and the player under the Israeli flag represents Israel.

Not only is this not a new issue, it's an issue where lines are already drawn. This is just a tournament choosing sides where the previous instance that I'm aware of was an entire chess federation...

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#164

Post by roveo »

jstx1 wrote: post #4

Not sure why the title is about Grischuk specifically, Norway Chess banned all Russian players. Which sucks given that many of these players have spoken up against what Russia is doing. Seems like they're being penalized unnecessarily.

Persecuting Russians who oppose the invasion, who fled Russia and went to the West because they don't want to be associated with the regime, is just plain stupid.

These people are actually your allies and a very valuable resource (intellectual, economic, political). Some of them risked their lives supporting opposition, cried for sanctions for years while your politicians benefitted from the regime's corruption and you did nothing. And now you're persecuting them like they're accomplices.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#165

Post by roveo »

shtopointo wrote: post #41

What’s with all these cancellations of Russian citizens? Surely this is not going to look good at the end of this war, and it’ll just be more propaganda for the Russian gov’t to use - “look, the west doesn’t care about you”. Is this just “cancel culture” exposed in a different area?

Yeah, I think this time period will be called "The Great Cancelling of Russia" in the history books.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#166

Post by s1artibartfast »

Miner49er wrote: post #81
endisneigh wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that were actually the issue they’d be allowed to play, but not on behalf of Russia. Though I’m curious - how much time in your opinion has to pass before Russians are allowed to participate again? If actions have to be taken, which ones? If actions can be taken to allow them to participate then in a sense is that saying the actions are sufficient to compensate for the senseless killing of Ukrainians? If no time o…

> Though I’m curious - how much time in your opinion has to pass before Russians are allowed to participate again? I think the idea in this case is that since many Ukranians can't play, Russians shouldn't be able to either. So I would think the sanctions would end when Ukraine isn't fighting anymore, and can participate again. That's at least the IOC's stance. [0] [0] https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-recommends-n…

But no Ukrainian was banned from playing? Were any even invited?

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#168

Post by belval »

encryptluks2 wrote: post #130
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is happening here is discrimination and can't be justified It is discrimination. And it's entirely justified. The same way when, if your friend stars a bar brawl, you all get kicked out. Only he should get e.g. arrested. But there's a big difference between not being able to compete for your country and getting shelled.

Wow, so you believe people of color deserve discrimination because statistically they commit more violent crime?

You are presenting a stunning example of the moat-and-bailey fallacy[1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#169

Post by pvaldes »

This is probably the best that could happen to him and other relevant Russian athletes:

If allowed to play will be exposed to a myriad of blood-thirsty journalists asking a chess player to talk about war. Would be asked, required and pressed thousands of times to speak against it or to clarity their position about it.

Anything that he says will be politicized.

1) Can choose to talk against the war and Putin, be cheered for a few days and return to Russia, where will be immediately put in jail and silenced, or end in the ever increasing list of people assassinated in this last decades. Or face retaliation against their families... Losing option.

2) Or can choose to say that Putin is a genius and the war is necessary. Will alienate their fan-base, friends and sponsors and end this international career. The championship could be boycotted by furious people. So. Losing option again. Everybody loses (except Putin). At least will not root in a jail.

3) Trying to remain neutral wouldn't work. Remaining silent in the middle of a genocide is the same as supporting it. And their words will be most probably cherry-picked by journalists to make it appear as supporting one or the other option.

So the only wining situation is not being allowed to play. Losing a championship or two and keeping a low profile for a while. Low price to pay for keeping his career and life relatively unscathed.

Is not his fault if he can't be used as living advertising for the politics of Putin. Will not earn the contempt of other chess masters or the hate of the fans for an parallel event that can't control and wasn't looking for.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#170

Post by Barrin92 »

lordnacho wrote: post #106
jstx1 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't have to represent Russia, the organisers could let them play without the Russian flag next to the players name.

Everyone still thinks of them as representing Russia though, especially if you just let them be called "Russian Olympic Committee" or similar. Even if they were under a neutral flag everyone would think of the person as Russian. There's no way around it, we all already know where they are from, regardless of what they think of the war.

>Everyone still thinks of them as representing Russia though

not really, in chess at least. Playing under the FIDE flag is pretty common when geopolitical tensions are involved, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIDE_flag_player

Israeli players playing under the FIDE flag at UAE tournaments has happened as well. There's plenty of precedent for it.

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