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Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

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Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#681

Post by roca »

spuz wrote: post #329
astrange wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The country (Russia) in its current form has just ceased to exist. I’m not too sure about this. The main problem is there isn’t a new form to replace it with, or a new government to replace Putin with that would act any different - for instance, not constantly assassinating people in Europe with chemical weapons. It does seem like a good time to leave, although an even better time would’ve been before the currency…

My interpretation is that Russia has changed even if Putin withdraws tomorrow and tries to revert things back to where they were a few months ago. The response from the West has been severe enough that it will take years for business relationships to be rebuilt. In that time, Russia would most likely form closer ties with China. This will mean the West will lose any leverage they previously had on their kleptocratic…

China won't be interested in propping up Russia. There's nothing in it for them.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#682

Post by [deleted] »

pydry wrote: post #397
simonh wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either you believe in democracy, or you do not. If the Ukrainian people want to join the EU or NATO, and our people want them to join us as well, they have the right to make that choice as free sovereign people, and we should back them up. Any other response is itself subjugation, and capitulation to terror.

I do believe in democracy. It doesnt change anything about what I just said.

[deleted]

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#683

Post by ausudhz »

anonymousDan wrote: post #372
ausudhz wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the airspace of half of the world is closed for Russia how you think they can even fly? They've sanctions that would even make it impossible for normal people to do a bank transfer in their "new" country.

There are plenty of land borders, a flight isn't necessary.

Yes go and check the distance between the border and the first "valid" Russian city, then do the same from the border to the other side.

Then think about the fact that is cold now and, additionally, that the border with Europe is full of military.

Now that you consider all tell me where they're supposed to go.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#684

Post by simonh »

pydry wrote: post #397
simonh wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either you believe in democracy, or you do not. If the Ukrainian people want to join the EU or NATO, and our people want them to join us as well, they have the right to make that choice as free sovereign people, and we should back them up. Any other response is itself subjugation, and capitulation to terror.

I do believe in democracy. It doesnt change anything about what I just said.

Rolling over and giving in to threats sometimes means those threats aren't carried out. Sometimes. Other times it simply emboldens and encourages the ones making the threats to threaten even more.

The fact that Putin is using Ukraine's possibly joining NATO as an excuse to invade does not mean he would not have invaded anyway. It's entirely likely he would have seen that as a further sign of weakness and simply found another excuse. So no, I don't agree that what you said is true and I don't understand how you can be so sure of it.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#685

Post by armada651 »

eftychis wrote: post #571
dukoid wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people also did not care about Georgia. So while cultural proximity is certainly a factor, geographical proximity seems to be a significant factor, too. I don't think Sreberenica is forgotten or was ignored in Europe. The West seems to be slow to wake up -- and Putin got high on his sequence of "successful" wars. I don't want to deny that hypocrisy exists here, but it doesn't justify Putins crimes anywhere.

Georgia and Ukraine are tightly connected in this through the same precursor events. The "West" is simply deaf. Multiple analysts had brought these concerns since before Crimea. (Disclaimer I am from the West -- trying to be objective here and focusing on the non-NATO side.) The diplomatic relationships since Russia Federation's birth have been problematic and idiosyncratic. Russian people wanted recognition of their…

I've watched the Pozner video before, but I would be highly skeptical. Vladimir Pozner is a former KGB propagandist according to his own admission. Thus he has quite a good understanding about effective propaganda: "Intelligent propaganda is not a propaganda that tells blatant lies. It's something where you try to show the good side of what your [sic] supporting and you don't tell about the negatives, you only tell about the positive." [1]

For example, while Pozner insists that Russia did nothing wrong during the 90s, he's conveniently forgetting to mention the Chechen Wars. Which wasn't a conflict the west was a party in, but it wouldn't exactly be fair to say Russia was a peace-loving nation during that time.

Also while he says there's plenty of proof of Putin trying to join NATO or the EU, I can only find proof of half-hearted attempts to join NATO, it doesn't seem he was very serious about any of it. Back in 2009 the Russian delegation to NATO, while open to the suggestion of joining NATO, also said "Great powers don't join coalitions, they create coalitions. Russia considers itself a great power." [2] Those aren't the kind of things you say when you're actively trying to join NATO.

In any case, I agree that the west should've done more to ensure democracy in the early Russian Federation was a success. And while the Wolfowitz Doctrine was widely condemned and was heavily changed it definitely cemented belief in Russia that the west was only interested in isolating it.

[1] https://www.pbs.org/redfiles/prop/deep/interv/p_int_vladimir... [2] https://euobserver.com/news/27890

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#686

Post by dncornholio »

eftychis wrote: post #571
dukoid wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people also did not care about Georgia. So while cultural proximity is certainly a factor, geographical proximity seems to be a significant factor, too. I don't think Sreberenica is forgotten or was ignored in Europe. The West seems to be slow to wake up -- and Putin got high on his sequence of "successful" wars. I don't want to deny that hypocrisy exists here, but it doesn't justify Putins crimes anywhere.

Georgia and Ukraine are tightly connected in this through the same precursor events. The "West" is simply deaf. Multiple analysts had brought these concerns since before Crimea. (Disclaimer I am from the West -- trying to be objective here and focusing on the non-NATO side.) The diplomatic relationships since Russia Federation's birth have been problematic and idiosyncratic. Russian people wanted recognition of their…

If you look at the globe, could you tell west from east? There is no East or West, these things are made up. It's all imaginary. Each country is free to believe what they believe, no matter if it's in the so called East or West. Don't try to look it from a particular 'side'. Look at it how YOU see it. Make you own judgements.

Would you think Russia and the rest of Europe be a good match? How many values do they share? Not many. Russia's actions have proven not letting them in NATO was an extremely good decision. I would not want to side with a country like that.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#687

Post by throw_a_grenade »

teekert wrote: post #234
kungito wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been multiple active wars in like 1/4 of the world the whole time since ww2 and all the time before that. The only thing different is that Ukraine is closer to EU than the rest of the countries.

Yes I realize it is perhaps hypocritical, but somehow I thought we had figured it out. I mean we (EU and US) also could have done more talking less warmongering. I’m also disappointed with our leaders.

No. The leaders should have done less talking and more warmongering. This is something that the West consistently fails to get, but it's very simple: the only thing that counts is what's done, and not what's been told. Talk is cheap.

You don't need to fire a single shot, you only need to move the units closer to the border, so aggresor needs to keep some of his units on his own territory "just in case".

Yeah, it would be nice if we lived in a world, where we can solve problems without involving the army at all, but it's not here yet.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#688

Post by zhdc1 »

d0mine wrote: post #608
sakopov wrote: post #472

The reason Russia has elevated tyrants to power for centuries is deep-rooted in Russian soul to the point where it's not even a problem. It's something that is inexplicably difficult to understand unless you actually experience the culture for a good portion of your life. There is a lot of literature out there about the "Russian Soul" and I really recommend reading it to understand how this happens. In my opinion it'…

This reminds how europeans justified slavery: "they are barbarians. We are making them a favor by owning them. We give them civilization" btw, russians are officially considered colored in US as I understand.

> btw, russians are officially considered colored in US as I understand.

As far as I'm aware, Russians were never subject to Jim Crowe laws.

There was, however, a significant surge in discrimination against Slavic (mainly Polish) immigrants in the early 20th century. See "The Polish Peasant in Europe & America" by Thomas & Znaniecki, which is considered to be one of the foundational texts in modern sociology.

That, however, more or less went away in the mid-late 20th century.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#689

Post by 5e92cb50239222b »

lm28469 wrote: post #665
sdevonoes wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Go on the street and take control of your country, before you turn into another North Korea. So, you are saying that one should risk their life for their country? No, thank you. I never understood this kind of "patriotism".

> for their country I had a discussion about that a few days ago with friends. It's not necessarily "for your country" or "patriotism" it can just be fighting for what you stand for. Sadly what a lot of people stand for these days is living their little comfortable life, as long as war doesn't knock on their door they're fine, but then when it does happen it's too late

While I mostly agree with that sentiment, please go look at Russian history. The past 20 years were probably the longest stretch of time when the Russian society was able to live a relatively decent life (by ex-USSR standards, however terrible it is by Western ones) for the past few centuries.

That's (I think) is why almost nobody was willing to 'rock the boat', as the Kremlin Führer says. Now everything is going down the toilet and most of the society haven't yet realized whet they're up for.

It's easy to criticize others when the worst thing your country has seen is the civil war 300 years ago. Russia went through 3 arguably even more serious events in the past century only. Nobody wanted to risk the little peaceful life they had, and still everything went down the drain.

Re: Tell HN: If You Are in Russia

#690

Post by hugojaba »

aiProgMach wrote: post #481
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We" tried talking, "we" didn't do the warmongering, where is that coming from? Granted, the US did a lot of warmongering in the middle east; I get that they wanted to retaliate after 9/11, but instead of rooting out the ones responsible directly they made up a motive (WOMD in Iraq) and did a full scale invasion there; I'm not saying Iraq was a pleasant, peaceful country or that Hussein was a nice guy, but the US inv…

Even when you're admitting that "US did a lot of warmongering in the middle east" you want to give them some excuses, "I get that they wanted to retaliate after 9/11" you say? "retaliate" you say. Against whom exactly? How the (oppressed) Iraqi people or even Saddam Hussein has to do anything with the 9/11? Do I really need to remind you that Saddam was US ally? or that Qaeda was the US ally in the "freedom" war agai…

Honestly, the middle east could have gotten better, there was a possibility that the dictatorships would get replaced by proper democracy, I think the US didn't realize how far down corruption and authoritarianism were rooted in those countries, it is like a Hydra, cut one head, many more grew.

For example, Panama, Chile, Germany, Japan, South Korea all turned out better after US intervention. But Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya got worse.

It is tough to choose the lesser of two evil, when you are in a democratically free country, you do wonder if the opportunity shows up, should you go help others overturn their dictator, and if so, will they then be able to establish a free democracy or will that just replace one dictator with a worse one? But what also happens is the fear, that if more and more countries lose freedom and democracy, and become dictatorships, then countries in free democracies get scared that they will be next, which tend to push them to act and try and overthrow other dictatorships when the opportunity shows up.

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