That would not go well for them. That would definitely get NATO going on the offensive. I say we make both countries honorary NATO members right away.
Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns
261–270 of 317 posts
Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns
#262Earlier quoted context omitted.
He is entirely rational, it has been known since forever that Ukraine is the brightest of red lines and that Russia would respond in this way. You can’t pin this on crazy, pretty much anyone else from the Russian elite would have done the same thing. Given that the CIA predicted this back in 2008 I would image there would be no change to their assessment.
The invasion of Ukraine is anything but rational. There's simply no way that ends well for Russia without some enormous doses of wishful thinking and fairy dust. The majority of people of Ukraine won't accept a Russian installed puppet government, and would receive help from abroad, so how exactly does Putin intend on ruling by force a country with 40 million citizens most of whom don't want him to?
Russia isn’t there to occupy permanently, they want neutrality in Ukraine’s constitution and there are a number of ways that can happen. They might incorporate the separatist areas as a buffer for the Black Sea.
Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns
#263We seem to be at an impass. NATO exists to help people not feel threatened by Russia. Putin has decided that the mere existence of a real NATO is a threat to Russia (he's fine with a paper tiger institution that is all but imaginary). It's like a European version of 1860 in the US. As an American, I'd be (emotionally, but not rationally) glad to just put an end to 100 years of Russian aggression, mostly because I'm a…
last time i checked america and russia were right next to each other. but youre not touching i suppose so ok
Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns
#264Well then, Congratulations Russia! You have just given the Swedish NATO-movement more support than they could have ever mustered themselves! I have always been very sceptical of NATO membership, but the last month I changed opinion.
You mean so far you've lived a peaceful life and were skeptical of joining NATO but now that you've seen what Russia did to Ukraine, you're tempted to share their fate?
Don't be stupid. You understand as well as anyone that there have been many good reasons not to join NATO. The other reply to my comment has a discussion about this that captures some aspects of it.
Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns
#265Earlier quoted context omitted.
Putin has been saying for the past decade that he would not tolerate further eastward expansion of NATO, a thoroughly anti-russian alliance. It is a reasonable position. No, invading independent countries is not reasonable. One can hold both these thoughts in their head.
It's not a reasonable position. It's like me telling my next door neighbor they can't be friends with another neighbor. It's none of my business, and I'd be an asshole for demanding it. It also places Russia in direct violation of their own agreements. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Securit...
You have to also consider that it involves more than just being friends, it also involves putting airbases, missiles, and possibly nukes pointing at your house.
Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns
#266Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is a very delicate situation that can't be resolved by just sending troops and fighting. Neither the US nor Europe wants to have another world war. Definitely not now nuclear weapons are much more powerful.
Then we should not have been encouraging Ukraine the way we have if we knew we didn't have their back. It really was not fair of us (the USA).
Ukraine had all of the information as well. They were told they wouldn't be defended by NATO, and they were told that they would be attacked by Russia if they didn't renounce their NATO aspirations.
It was all a big game of chicken to see if Russia was bluffing
Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns
#267Earlier quoted context omitted.
It really makes perfect sense. USA has long history of imperialism and anti-democratic actions. And USA is core of NATO. Any sane country knows that only safe way is to have reasonable buffer zone against such well known aggressor.
I guess I don't understand the "buffer zone" logic. I've read/seen that in a number of places of late. And it just seems like a dodge to me. A while back, our company hired a difficult to cope with person. There was some social awkwardness. And some performance issues. It's a good sized disciplinary group, but his assigned tasks were most similar to mine. Guess who became the "buffer zone"? Me. It was the worst. When…
You see how Russian tanks and troops rolled across the boarder and were at Kyiv in 2 days. That is because there were no buffers.
Buffer zone in this context means Russia doesn't want US missiles and nuclear bombers with a 5 minute flight time to Moscow.
Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns
#268Earlier quoted context omitted.
The invasion of Ukraine is anything but rational. There's simply no way that ends well for Russia without some enormous doses of wishful thinking and fairy dust. The majority of people of Ukraine won't accept a Russian installed puppet government, and would receive help from abroad, so how exactly does Putin intend on ruling by force a country with 40 million citizens most of whom don't want him to?
Russia isn’t there to occupy permanently, they want neutrality in Ukraine’s constitution and there are a number of ways that can happen. They might incorporate the separatist areas as a buffer for the Black Sea.
But they can't dictate Ukraine's constitution and government and expect the locals to fight against that, or at the very least overthrow the lot the second the Russian troops leave.
Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns
#269Earlier quoted context omitted.
> defensive alliance Yeah, right. Remind me please who was NATO defending against during the military operation in Libya? Iraq? Regarding the rest of your arguments, whether you want to support joining NATO is your own business. I'm just looking at it from a game theory perspective. As far as I remember, so far there haven't been threats from Russia against Sweden. Now you want to join and there is a threat. You may…
The reality is that swift decisive action in a coordinated fashion is the only way to stop an aggressor that suggest that everyone else needs to also lie down and shut up or they will get a thrashing too. Game theory says “on three JUMP HIM!” Multiple entities need to act with force in non economic ways that render collective bullying impossible. Game theory says “gang up now instead of letting your strongest get pic…
> Game theory says “on three JUMP HIM!”
Yes, sure. But what you're betting on here is that when Sweden says "on three JUMP HIM!", the rest will follow. And when you have multiple countries now refusing to take Russia out of SWIFT, which is a relatively benign measure, compared to an all-out war, how confident are you that they will come in your defense in case of an actual war against a nuclear power?
Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns
#270Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ukraine is not a member of Nato. Reconsider the logic in your line of thought.
Maybe you should reconsider your logic? Ukraine wasn't attacked because it's a NATO member, it was attacked because (among other things) it wanted to become NATO member. There isn't a process where you just submit your wish to become a member and the next day, voila, you're accepted! It's a long process and that's when you'll be most vulnerable to attack.
No. Ukraine was attacked because Russia wants Ukraine territory a d is not accepting its right to exists as independent nation.
The above is Russian goal with or without talk about NATO. The debate about maybe joining NATO sometimes in future might have speed up Russian plans. But Russia objection to Ukraine in NATO is basically "it would made it harder to annex them".