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Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

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Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#151
post #120
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an empty threat from Putin, he may be close to a madman but he is not stupid. Attacking NATO will mean his removal from power, most likely by someone within his own ranks. If Sweden or Finland wants in, then NATO should comply as fast as possible.

Technically, if there were attacked this evening, nobody in the US or EU would come to help them. They would be AND are in the same situation as Ukraine.

You may be right about the US, but you are probably wrong about the EU.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#152
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a world war. The fighting is specific to a single area. The Vietnam War involved at least double the number of involved countries and wasn’t considered a world war.

> This is not a world war. The fighting is specific to a single area. That was true of WWII, until it wasn't.

And it's not true of this war until it is.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#153
post #34

We seem to be at an impass. NATO exists to help people not feel threatened by Russia. Putin has decided that the mere existence of a real NATO is a threat to Russia (he's fine with a paper tiger institution that is all but imaginary). It's like a European version of 1860 in the US. As an American, I'd be (emotionally, but not rationally) glad to just put an end to 100 years of Russian aggression, mostly because I'm a…

It really makes perfect sense. USA has long history of imperialism and anti-democratic actions. And USA is core of NATO. Any sane country knows that only safe way is to have reasonable buffer zone against such well known aggressor.

I guess I don't understand the "buffer zone" logic. I've read/seen that in a number of places of late. And it just seems like a dodge to me.

A while back, our company hired a difficult to cope with person. There was some social awkwardness. And some performance issues. It's a good sized disciplinary group, but his assigned tasks were most similar to mine. Guess who became the "buffer zone"? Me. It was the worst. When things finally spilled over, there was a larger meeting where issues were finally recognized. I expressed my bitter sweet gladness thusly: "I can't tell you guys how wonderful it feels to no longer have this be my burden and my burden alone. It is such a relief. On the flip side though, why the F** didn't this meeting happen 2 years ago?!?!? I could have laid this all out for you then, but I guess it wasn't bothering you yet, was it?"

I've seen this behavior in church youth groups I've worked with over the years. There's an odd-hard-to-cope with person. The group pushes back against maladaptive behavior. The troubled youth connects with one of the normal kids. And then that kid gets asked to be the problem child's "buddy". And the rest of the group abandons the buddy to suffer it alone.

I volunteered at our state penitentiary for a couple of years. It was interesting experience. On the outside, I would hear "tough on crime" and "three strikes and you're out" and "those people". On the inside... it was complicated, and a different story. A couple of truly evil people, mostly surrounded by people who grew up in crappy situations, were in the wrong place at the right time, and a whole lot of iffy mental health. Same thing. As long as it was somebody else's problem, the "rest of society" could have a happy existence.

Maybe I'm seeing too many similarities where I shouldn't, but I find the whole notion of a "buffer zone" a poli-sci euphemism for "somebody else should have a shitty life so we don't have to".

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#154

Now is probably the only opportunity they will get. With much of Russia's army tied up in Ukraine they could join in secret overnight and in the morning the rest of NATO could land huge numbers of airborne reinforcements and the whole thing would be a fait accompli. The only response Putin could make would be to trigger WW3.

I think this is the right call. Russian forces are spread too thin to react in time. And then it will be too late for them to do anything about it.

Then someone might respond: but Putin is clearly insane and could start a nuclear war over such an act. Well, in that case what move can you even make? I mean if the opponent is clinically insane then every move you make could trigger a nuclear war.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#155
post #50
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really makes perfect sense. USA has long history of imperialism and anti-democratic actions. And USA is core of NATO. Any sane country knows that only safe way is to have reasonable buffer zone against such well known aggressor.

Well, if Russia didn't act like a total asshole towards all their neighbors then maybe some of them would like to be their allies. The fact that Baltic states or Ukraine prefer to side with a "well known aggressor" instead of their "Slavic brothers" from Russia really tells you everything. Putin has no one to blame for that but himself.

No country that has experienced decades of Russian occupation wants to go back there.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#157
post #106
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The right thing to do is to help other people even when it doesn't benefit you. Why does it have to be the American men and women getting killed? Russia is never going to cross the ocean and attack us, and if they did they would never win. Why can't the EU defend itself? It ought to be strong enough. If the EU is sustainable it should be able to defend itself without outsourcing 95% of its defense to a foreign powe…

Ukraine is not in the EU.

If it expands beyond Ukraine any further westward it will be immediately NATO’s and the EU’s problem.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#158

I'm ashamed at our (the USA's) response. We have no choice here. When will this stop? Do we allow mutually assured destruction be used to have Putin march his troops into our beloved nation too? What about Georgia, Bosnia, Finland, Sweden? The only option, better done now than later is to ready, arm and prepare all our nuclear warheads, point them at Moscow, and then send our forces into Ukraine, repelling the Russia…

[deleted]

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#159

Doesn't the EU membership also include some sort of mutual defense agreement?

Absolutely. Co-defense is now one of the pillars of the union, just Denmark and Malta that aren't in there:

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/defence-security...

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? He is fighting to have veto over who gets to join NATO. It will be a victory for him if he is able to freeze NATO membership to the current number. Russian economy maybe be ruined for next decade or longer and most likely Putin will be dead or retired by then but he would be looked in Russia as the guy who keep Russia relevant. Putin is embarrassing US and NATO by destroying Ukraine while they watch helplessl…

> I have utmost sympathy for Ukraine but where were the angry people when US attacked Iraq? In many cases, calling for George W. Bush and much of the military and diplomatic leadership of the US to be punished for the crime of aggression (initially) and war crimes (based on the conduct of the illegal-from-the-start war).

Should really be extended to much further. To soldiers, to financial supporters of those and their parties, to voters. All complicit and hands covered in blood.
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