Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

vaghetti.dev

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 611 posts

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#31

Post by cableshaft »

Sytten wrote: post #16
TameAntelope wrote: post #10

Is this actually true? Are CEOs lamenting their engineering labor costs like this? I feel like by now the cost of engineering labor has demonstrated its value over and over again, to the point where most CEOs accept the cost of engineering is more or less a shared expense across competition, and not really something to be reduced.

Well we have a couple of particularly vocal CEO here (Quebec, Canada) that are always moaning (sometimes on national television) about how they cannot find talent or that gaming companies "steal their talents". All the while they pay comparatively low salaries when compared to what you get working remote for US business. Worst case is when they IPO, they get a fat exit and the workers get nothing because company don'…

> or that gaming companies "steal their talents"

As a former developer in the game industry, I find that difficult to believe. The average career of someone in the game industry is ~3-6 years[1], as devs get chewed up, burnt out, and then discover that by leaving they can (usually) have greater work/life balance for about 50-100%+ more money.

I lasted about four years myself, and as much as I'd love to work on games again, I couldn't accept the pay cut or the long hours. So I just make games in my free time now. I may take a 3-6 month sabbatical at some point to work on it full time again for a little while, but it'll be my own projects.

They must treat their devs pretty poorly and/or pay garbage salaries there if gaming companies are successfully stealing devs away.

[1]: https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/the-great-video-game-...

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#32

Post by brailsafe »

adamredwoods wrote: post #24

>> The CEO’s job is to make as much profit as possible. Higher salaries mean less profit. It’s just how the game works. I find this to be too simplified. The CEO's job is far beyond salaries alone. >> Even if we enter some new dotcom bubble and a good chunk of our startup ecosystem dies off, demand for tech is spreading across all industries, businesses everywhere are digitizing their operations and these systems wil…

What about when everyone becomes a programmer (now) and starts a race to the bottom?

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#33

Post by ravenstine »

adamredwoods wrote: post #24

>> The CEO’s job is to make as much profit as possible. Higher salaries mean less profit. It’s just how the game works. I find this to be too simplified. The CEO's job is far beyond salaries alone. >> Even if we enter some new dotcom bubble and a good chunk of our startup ecosystem dies off, demand for tech is spreading across all industries, businesses everywhere are digitizing their operations and these systems wil…

> We're not in a bubble. We are in the information era, and cloud computing is helping drive this.

We're not necessarily in a bubble, but perhaps there's some foam?

There will be a plethora of programmer jobs for some times go come, but we've also gone quite a while without a meaningful market adjustment, if you will. A point may come where global politics force the industry to be far more regulated than it currently is, and the days of being a self-taught coder with no degree and a poor understanding of security may come to an end.

Maybe that doesn't happen, but if it does, I see lots of jobs disappearing and evolving into new ones, and a fraction of people in software deciding it's not worth it anymore. The world has only just started to truly realize how we effectively control information, and if the sentiment towards Silicon Valley gets worse then there may be more calls for regulation and new regulatory bodies; in which case jobs may open up within that new bureaucracy.

That hypothesis is irrelevant if the industry was operating at a moderate pace. There's a lot of money still coming from somewhere, and backpressure can create a wave that pushes revenue back in the opposite direction, if even briefly.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#35

Post by toomanydoubts »

withinboredom wrote: post #3
MattGaiser wrote: post #2

> Developers are expensive. If a new IDE shows up and they can deliver stuff 5% faster, that means you can have 5% less programmers! Of course the IDE has a price, but it is almost certainly cheaper than 5% of a developer. Dev work is nebulous enough that very few companies seem willing to invest in dev tooling. I've heard nothing but good things about JRebel for example and how it keeps people focused instead of swo…

I’m aloud to pretty much expense any tool at work as long as I can justify it. I’ve never been asked to justify it, but that’s the rule. I think I probably expense a hundred bucks a month on tools.

Care to share which tools are these? I've been in the field for several years and can't remember the last time I shelled money for a tool. What cool stuff am I missing?

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#36

Post by spaetzleesser »

commandlinefan wrote: post #14

Lawyers and doctors have always enjoyed “good times” and there’s no reason to think they’ll stop. Why not programmers, too?

Because they are smart and have built up huge barriers for entry. In contrast everybody can get into programming without any training.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#37

Post by e40 »

adamredwoods wrote: post #24

>> The CEO’s job is to make as much profit as possible. Higher salaries mean less profit. It’s just how the game works. I find this to be too simplified. The CEO's job is far beyond salaries alone. >> Even if we enter some new dotcom bubble and a good chunk of our startup ecosystem dies off, demand for tech is spreading across all industries, businesses everywhere are digitizing their operations and these systems wil…

Just saw an article earlier about google lowering salaries in some state.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#38

Post by jollybean »

Everyone in the US or a wealthy country pushing for 'remote work' is outsourcing themselves, ultimately.

In the short term we get 'remote work' which some see as a benefit.

In the medium term, absent the apparent advantage/willingness of people to be 'on prem' (in the minds of employers), it's just as easy to hire someone at 3/4 price from Europe, 1/2 price from E. Europe, 1/4 the price from India.

While 'language and custom' do present real challenges, let's not kid ourselves: the CFO can use very, very powerful language to push for 'offshoring' because they will talk in terms of 'raw dollars'.

The 'advantage' of devs. from wealthier nations is abstract. Their costs are not.

In much the same way companies made a fairly narrow choice to jam everyone into 'open work spaces' - which drives a lot of people nuts and I think harms productivity, but is quantifiably cheaper ... companies may opt to 'cheap out'.

Many will.

I'm wary that the material realities of on/off prem, language, culture, time-zones, communications etc. will be lost in the mix.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#39

Post by czbond »

300bps wrote: post #26
mrtksn wrote: post #17

I think it ends with everyone becoming a developer. Making machines do things will never end. However, the tools for making machines do things is evolving very quickly. The general art of being a developer will continue to get specialized and at some point specialists at any field would be expected to be able to program their machines. Very few people are learning how to run their servers and much more are moving int…

I think it ends with everyone becoming a developer Not in a million years. When I was 10 I got my first computer and spent 12-16 hours per day on it every day learning BASIC, 6502 Assembly and many other languages. All the adults at the time thought, “this is how all kids will be from now on!” Except none of my peers did it. The generation after me only had a small percentage of people truly interested in computers a…

>A large percentage of the total population is outright technology hostile and proud of it.

Can you expand on this? I was one of the CompSci because I loved it people - and find it hard to fathom this - and could use some insight.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#40

Post by [deleted] »

TameAntelope wrote: post #10

Is this actually true? Are CEOs lamenting their engineering labor costs like this? I feel like by now the cost of engineering labor has demonstrated its value over and over again, to the point where most CEOs accept the cost of engineering is more or less a shared expense across competition, and not really something to be reduced.

[deleted]
Post reply on HN