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The data are clear: The boys are not all right

washingtonpost.com

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Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#851

Post by jjav »

rayiner wrote: post #269
ytwombly wrote: post #150

US-based cis-hetero white man here. The data reinforce the impression you get glancing at the headlines or spending a day out anywhere in America observing other men. Dare I say it even reinforces what I know from painful firsthand experience as a man, at the lowest points in my life. I was lucky though, with a supportive family who helped me through the confusing years of early adulthood. You can point to the declin…

> You can point to the decline of organized religion and with it traditional gender roles, but then what explains the relative stability in post-Christian Europe? As far as I can tell, Europe isn’t all that post-Christian. Even countries that have low levels of people actively practicing religion still carry a strong cultural legacy from Christianity: https://www.europenowjournal.org/2019/10/02/the-catholic-nes... Co…

> 56% would prefer a “homemaker” role if they were “free” to do either

I would imagine approximately everyone would prefer a homemaker role if it was possible.

I had the fortune of taking multiple years off to spend with my child at home, it was the best time ever. Unfortunately savings don't last forever so eventually had to go back to the soulless grind of daily status report standups and endless useless meetings.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#852

Post by klysm »

da39a3ee wrote: post #671

Interesting: the 4th sentence shows Andrew Yang publicly acknowledging that many "ADHD" diagnoses are spurious, i.e. in those spurious cases it's just a fancy medical-sounding term for students who are struggling academically: > Boys and men across all regions and ethnic groups have been failing, both absolutely and relatively, for years. [...] The data are clear. Boys are more than twice as likely as girls to be dia…

These spurious “cases” are also incredibly damaging to those who have a legitimate and innate case of ADHD that persists into adulthood. I also think Yang’s writing here doesn’t help on that front - there are lots of real people with a real disability that goes way beyond just a short attention span.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#853

Post by wolverine876 »

AdrianB1 wrote: post #522
wolverine876 wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And having very few adults to talk to, no status, no career advancement (in fact, the opposite), and little recognition.

Having no career advancement is sometimes like not having cancer: a net positive. Most people have no career at all, they retire on the same job (just more "senior") they started with. For them, there is no loss. Also a stay at home wife was traditionally not isolated from society; in my family one generation ago almost everyone was in that situation and I can tell that social interactions were much stronger and more…

Again, broad claims, but based on what?

> Having no career advancement is sometimes like not having cancer: a net positive.

I have never heard anyone express or imply that. I don't doubt you feel that way, but is there any evidence that it's widespread?

> Most people have no career at all, they retire on the same job (just more "senior") they started with.

That is almost certainly not true. I believe the evidence says that the great majority switch jobs many times and switch careers several times.

> a stay at home wife was traditionally not isolated from society

I've heard otherwise from homemakers of prior generations - the isolation was one of their primary complaints. And I'm pretty sure I've read about research showing the same. What makes your narrative true?

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#854

Post by spaniard89277 »

krageon wrote: post #841
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know enough about Japan to say anything on this matter but at least in Italy, unlike America, it’s fairly common for adults to live with their parents until married, without social stigma (well, if they have a job).

> without social stigma Is this really true? You are describing the quintessential basement-dweller, which is not exactly a rosy stereotype.

It's kinda true, but you can't be just lying around. You need to study work etc

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#855

Post by Lammy »

javajosh wrote: post #763
mbfg wrote: post #695

I think a big part of the despair is the obvious difference between what children are taught is the american dream vs what the american reality is. We are told america is the best place on earth with all the doors open to you to be rich. That all other forms of government are flawed and we have excellence here everywhere you look. And then you look at reality and see something else. Sure there are pockets of excellen…

>Women, on the other hand, haven't been given the same advertising on the American dream that men have There is a documentary, "Born Rich" [0]. It's interviews with the children of very rich people, done by one of their peers. I noticed that in the film there is stark difference between the girls and the boys: the girls were all well adjusted, enjoying their wealth, happy, satisfied, seemingly well-aware of their goo…

"A million one, a million two / A hundred more will never do" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XCQNpjWmRE

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#856

Post by barbecue_sauce »

nicbou wrote: post #823
pcmoney wrote: post #803

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also haven’t invented or built anything meaningful in several hundred years…

The Royal Society would disagree

I think the Royal Society could probably be considered biased.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#857

Post by wolverine876 »

prawn wrote: post #603
AdrianB1 wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do you get to say what someone's purpose is? Why is being a provider necessarily the purpose in life? Because this was the case for the last 10,000 years and you cannot change it overnight, unless you are in Soviet Russia and send people to Gulag for re-education. It is built into men's biological nature to be provider (like most mammals in the nature), you cannot change it because society decided less than a g…

I asked someone up thread, but what's stopping males being a provider? The original suggestion was a change from traditional roles is the issue, but I don't think that's it.

> what's stopping males being a provider?

Imagining how impossible it is.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#858

Post by yes_really »

ReactiveJelly wrote: post #419

> we must stop defining masculinity as necessarily toxic I know "toxic masculinity" is a dumb academic term that never should have become a slogan, but Andrew, Mr. Yang, that's not what it means. It's like "async functions". Not all functions are async. It's okay if a function is sync. Adjectives modify nouns to make them refer to a specific subset. It's fine to be masculine. I don't know what it means to be masculin…

The problem is that that term "toxic masculinity" is commonly understood as masculinity being toxic. People should stop using that term.

If you say you are "visiting the famous Golden Gate Bridge", people will understand that you are visiting the Golden Gate Bridge, and that you said it is famous. Nobody will think you meant there are many Golden Gate Bridges, but you are only visiting the famous one.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#859

Post by jjav »

thematrixturtle wrote: post #451
irrational wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who wouldn’t prefer to stay home if they had the choice? I could spend my days traveling, hiking, going to the beach, reading, working on hobbies, learning new skills, cooking, etc.

I think you misspelled changing diapers, doing laundry three times a day, spoon-feeding broccoli puree, scraping dried broccoli off the floor, shopping while trying to contain a squealing octopus, etc.

All of these are orders of magnitude more pleasant than daily standups etc.

As a man, I had the fortune to stay at home for several years with my child and it was the most wonderful time ever. Sure it's a lot of work, but also a lot of joy.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#860

Post by coryrc »

cgriswald wrote: post #642
coryrc wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or watching and helping form your own child into him/herself, meeting your friends for casual lunches in the park while your kids play, playing goofy games, having time to make nutritious meals instead of heating frozen foods, etc.

Grandparent was responding to the ridiculous notion that being a homemaker is like being on vacation with kids . No one is disputing there can be benefits to being a homemaker or having one in the family.

Being on vacation with kids is far harder than being at home with kids!
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